Hi all, I'm +1 on it. As long as we follow the ASF rules on this, we can thank those that are/have made contributions.
Best regards, Martijn On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:45 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Matthias, > > Thanks for your comments! Please see my reply inline. > > > What do we do if we have enough VMs? Do we still allow > companies to add more VMs to the pool even though it's not adding any > value? > > The ASF policy[1] makes it very clear: "Project Thanks pages are to show > appreciation > for goods that the project truly needs, not just for goods that someone > wants to donate." > Therefore, the community should reject new VMs if it is enough. > > > > The community lacks the openly accessible tools to monitor the VM usage > independently > as far as I know (the Azure Pipelines project is owned by Ververica right > now). > > The Azure pipeline account is sponsored by Ververica, and is managed by the > community. > AFAIK, Chesnay and Robert both have admin permissions [2] to the Azure > pipeline project. > Others can contact the managers to get access to the environment. > > > I figured that there could be a chance for us to > rely on Apache-provided infrastructure entirely with our current workload > when switching over from Azure Pipelines. > > That sounds great. We can return back the VMs and mark the donations as > historical > on the Thank Page once the new GitHub Actions CI is ready. > > > I am fine with creating a Thank You page to acknowledge the financial > contributions from Alibaba and Ververica in the past (since Apache allows > historical donations) considering that the contributions of the two > companies go way back in time and are quite significant in my opinion. I > suggest focusing on the past for now because of the option to migrate to > Apache infrastructure midterm. > > Sorry, do you mean we only mention past donations for now? > IIUC, the new GitHub Actions might be ready after the end of v1.20, which > probably be in half a year. > I'm worried that if we say the sponsorship is ongoing until now (but it's > not), it will confuse > people and disrespect the sponsor. > > Besides, I'm not sure whether the new GitHub Actions CI will replace the > machines for running > flink-ci mirrors [3] and the flink benchmarks [4]. If not, I think it's > inappropriate to say they are > historical donations. > > Furthermore, we are collecting all kinds of donations. I just noticed that > AWS donated [5] service costs > for flink-connector-aws tests that hit real AWS services. This is an > ongoing donation and I think it's not > good to mark it as a historical donation. (Thanks for the donation, AWS, > @Danny > Cranmer <dannycran...@apache.org> @HongTeoh! > We should add it to the Thank Page!) > > Best, > Jark > > > [1]: https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#projectthanks > [2]: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Continuous+Integration#ContinuousIntegration-Contacts > > [3]: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Continuous+Integration#ContinuousIntegration-Repositories > > [4]: https://lists.apache.org/thread/bkw6ozoflgltwfwmzjtgx522hyssfko6 > > [5]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-24474 > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 17:58, Matthias Pohl <map...@apache.org> wrote: > > > Thanks for starting this discussion. I see the value of such a page if we > > want to encourage companies to sponsor CI infrastructure in case we need > > this infrastructure (as Yun Tang pointed out). The question is, though: > Do > > we need more VMs? The amount of commits to master is constantly > decreasing > > since its peak in 2019/2020 [1]. Did we observe shortage of CI runners in > > the past years? What do we do if we have enough VMs? Do we still allow > > companies to add more VMs to the pool even though it's not adding any > > value? Then it becomes a marketing tool for companies. The community > lacks > > the openly accessible tools to monitor the VM usage independently as far > as > > I know (the Azure Pipelines project is owned by Ververica right now). My > > concern is (which goes towards what Max is saying) that this can be a > > source of friction in the community (even if it's not about individuals > but > > companies). I'm not sure whether the need for additional infrastructure > > out-weights the risk for friction. > > > > On another note: After monitoring the GitHub Action workflows (FLIP-396 > > [2]) for the past weeks, I figured that there could be a chance for us to > > rely on Apache-provided infrastructure entirely with our current workload > > when switching over from Azure Pipelines. But that might be a premature > > judgement because the monitoring started after the feature freeze of > Flink > > 1.19. We should wait with a final conclusion till the end of the 1.20 > > release cycle. Apache Infra increased the amount of VMs they are offering > > since 2018 (when the Apache Flink community decided to go for Azure > > Pipelines and custom VMs as far as I know). That's based on a > conversation > > I had with the Apache Infra folks at one of their roundtable meetings > [3]. > > This and the fact that the amount of commits is decreasing in recent > years > > [1] (which correlates with the number of CI runs) could be indications > that > > additional VMs are not necessary (and with that, the need to have a Thank > > You page as well). > > > > But I acknowledge that Alibaba and Ververica would like to be recognized > > for their financial contributions to the community in the past. > Therefore, > > I am fine with creating a Thank You page to acknowledge the financial > > contributions from Alibaba and Ververica in the past (since Apache allows > > historical donations) considering that the contributions of the two > > companies go way back in time and are quite significant in my opinion. I > > suggest focusing on the past for now because of the option to migrate to > > Apache infrastructure midterm. > > > > Best, > > Matthias > > > > [1] https://github.com/apache/flink/graphs/contributors > > [2] > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-396%3A+Trial+to+test+GitHub+Actions+as+an+alternative+for+Flink%27s+current+Azure+CI+infrastructure > > [3] > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INFRA/Infra+Roundtable+2023-12-06%2C+17%3A00+UTC > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:06 AM tison <wander4...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > a rare way different than > > > > individuals (few individuals can donate such resources) > > > > > > Theoretically, if an individual donates so, we list list him/her as > well. > > > > > > I've seen such donations in The Perl Foundation like [1]. But since a > > > PMC doesn't have a fundraising office, we may not accept raw money > > > anyway; it's already out of the thread :D > > > > > > Best, > > > tison. > > > > > > [1] https://news.perlfoundation.org/post/announcement_of_the_ian_hague > > > > > > Yun Tang <myas...@live.com> 于2024年3月6日周三 13:58写道： > > > > > > > > Thanks for Jark's proposal, and I'm +1 for adding such a page. > > > > > > > > The CI infrastructure helps the Apache Flink project to run well. I > > > cannot imagine how insufficient CI machines would impact the > development > > > progress, especially when the feature freeze date is close. And I > believe > > > that most guys who contributed to the community would not know Alibaba > > and > > > Ververica had ever donated several machines to make the community work > > > smoothly for years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > Yun Tang > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 11:35 > > > > To: dev@flink.apache.org <dev@flink.apache.org> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Add "Special Thanks" Page on the Flink Website > > > > > > > > Hi Max, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your input. > > > > > > > > According to ASF policy[1], the Thank Page is intended to thank third > > > > parties > > > > that provide physical resources like machines, services, and software > > > that > > > > the committers > > > > or the project truly needs. I agree with Tison, such donation is > > > countable > > > > and that's why > > > > I started this discussion to collect the full list. The thank Page is > > not > > > > intended to thank working > > > > hours or contributions from individual volunteers which I think > > > > is recognized in other ways > > > > (e.g., credit of committer and PMC member). > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > [1]: https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#projectthanks > > > > > > > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 01:14, tison <wander4...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Max, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your concerns :D > > > > > > > > > > I'd elaborate a bit on this topic with an example, that Apache > > Airflow > > > > > has a small section for its special sponsor who offers machines for > > CI > > > > > also [1]. > > > > > > > > > > In my understanding, companies employ developers to invest time in > > the > > > > > development of Flink and that is large, vague, and hard to be fair > to > > > > > list all of the companies. > > > > > > > > > > However, physical resources like CI machines are countable and they > > > > > help the sustainability of our project in a rare way different than > > > > > individuals (few individuals can donate such resources). We can > > > > > maintain such a section or page for those sponsors so that it also > > > > > decreases the friction when the company asks "what we can gain" > (for > > > > > explicit credits, at least, and easy understanding). > > > > > > > > > > Any entity is welcome to add themselves as long as it's valid. > > > > > > > > > > For the fair part, I'm not an employee of both companies listed on > > the > > > > > demo page and I don't feel uncomfortable. Those companies do > invest a > > > > > lot on our project and I'd regard it as a chance to encourage other > > > > > companies to follow. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://github.com/apache/airflow?tab=readme-ov-file#sponsors > > > > > > > > > > Maximilian Michels <m...@apache.org> 于2024年3月6日周三 00:49写道： > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a bit torn on this idea. On the one hand, it makes sense to > > thank > > > > > > sponsors and entities who have supported Flink in the past. On > > other > > > > > > hand, this list is bound to be incomplete and maybe also biased, > > even > > > > > > if not intended to be so. I think the power of open-source comes > > from > > > > > > the unconditional donation of code and knowledge. Infrastructure > > > costs > > > > > > are a reality and donations in that area are meaningful, but they > > are > > > > > > just one piece of the total sum which consists of many volunteers > > and > > > > > > working hours. In my eyes, a Thank You page would have to display > > > each > > > > > > entity fairly which is going to be hard to achieve. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Max > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 2:30 PM Jingsong Li < > jingsongl...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for setting up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 5:39 PM Jing Ge > > <j...@ververica.com.invalid > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 and thanks for the proposal! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Jing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 10:26 AM tison <wander4...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like this idea, so +1 for setting up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For anyone who have the access, this is a related thread > > about > > > > > > > > > project-wise sponsor in the foundation level [1]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/2nv0x9gfk9lfnpb2315xgywyx84y97v6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> 于2024年3月5日周二 17:17写道： > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I posted the wrong [7] link. The Flink benchmark > ML > > > link > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/bkw6ozoflgltwfwmzjtgx522hyssfko6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 at 16:56, Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to propose adding a "Special Thanks" page to our > > > Apache > > > > > Flink > > > > > > > > > website [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to honor and appreciate the > > > > > > > > > > > companies and organizations that have sponsored > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > machines or services for our project. The establishment > > of > > > > > such a page > > > > > > > > > serves as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a public acknowledgment of our sponsors' contributions > > and > > > > > > > > > simultaneously acts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as a positive encouragement for other entities to > > consider > > > > > supporting > > > > > > > > > our project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding Per-Project Thanks pages is allowed by ASF > > > policy[2], > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > says "PMCs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may wish to provide recognition for third parties that > > > provide > > > > > > > > > software or services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to the project's committers to further the goals of the > > > > > project. These > > > > > > > > > are typically > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > called Per-Project Thanks pages". Many Apache projects > > > have > > > > > added such > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pages, for example, Apache HBase[3] and Apache Mina[4]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To initiate this idea, I have drafted a preliminary > page > > > under > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > "About" menu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > > > Flink website to specifically thank Alibaba and > > Ververica, > > > by > > > > > following > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the ASF guidelines and the Apache Mina project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > page image: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/flink/assets/5378924/e51aaffe-565e-46d1-90af-3900904afcc0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Below companies are on the thanks list for their > donation > > > to > > > > > Flink > > > > > > > > > testing infrastructure: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Alibaba donated 8 machines (32vCPU,64GB) for running > > > Flink > > > > > CI builds > > > > > > > > > [5]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ververica donated 2 machines for hosting flink-ci > > > > > repositories [6] > > > > > > > > > and running Flink benchmarks [7]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I may miss some other donations or companies, please > add > > > them > > > > > if you > > > > > > > > > know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking forward to your feedback about this proposal! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]: https://flink.apache.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [2]: > > > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking#projectthanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [3]: https://hbase.apache.org/sponsors.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [4]: https://mina.apache.org/special-thanks.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [5]: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Azure+Pipelines#AzurePipelines-AvailableCustomBuildMachines > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [6]: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Continuous+Integration > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [7]: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/41a68c775753a7841896690c75438e0a497634102e676db880f30225@%3Cdev.flink.apache.org%3E > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
