Hi Jing and Jark! I can definitely appreciate the desire to have fewer configurations.
Do you have a suggested alternative for platform providers to limit or restrict the hints that Bonnie is talking about? As one possibility, maybe one configuration could be set to control all hints. Cheers, Jim On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 6:16 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree with Jing, > > My biggest concern is this makes the boundary of adding an option very > unclear. > It's not a strong reason to add a config just because of it doesn't affect > existing > users. Does this mean that in the future we might add an option to disable > each feature? > > Flink already has a very long list of configurations [1][2] and this is > very scary > and not easy to use. We should try to remove the unnecessary configuration > from > the list in Flink 2.0. However, from my perspective, adding this option > makes us far > away from this direction. > > Best, > Jark > > [1] > https://nightlies.apache.org/flink/flink-docs-master/docs/dev/table/config/ > [2] > > https://nightlies.apache.org/flink/flink-docs-master/docs/deployment/config/ > > On Sat, 9 Sept 2023 at 17:33, Jing Ge <j...@ververica.com.invalid> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Thanks for bringing this to our attention. At the first glance, it looks > > reasonable to offer a new configuration to enable/disable SQL hints > > globally. However, IMHO, it is not the right timing to do it now, because > > we should not only think as platform providers but also as end users(the > > number of end users are much bigger than platform providers): > > > > 1. Users don't need it because users have the choice to use hints or not, > > just like Jark pointed out. With this configuration, there will be a > fight > > between platform providers and users which will cause more confusions and > > conflicts. And users will probably win, IMHO, because they are the end > > customers that use Flink to create business values. > > 2. SQL hints could be considered as an additional feature for users to > > control, to optimize the execution plan without touching the internal > > logic, i.e. features for advanced use cases and i.e. don't use it if you > > don't understand it. > > 3. Before the system is smart enough to take over(where we are now, > > fortunately and unfortunately :-))), there should be a way for users to > do > > such tuning, even if it is a temporary phase from a > > long-term's perspective, i.e. just because it is a temporary solution, > does > > not mean it is not necessary for now. > > 4. What if users write wrong hints? Well, the code review process is > > recommended. Someone who truly understands hints should double check it > > before hints are merged to the master or submitted to the production env. > > Just like a common software development process. > > > > Just my two cents. > > > > Best regards, > > Jing > > > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 10:02 PM Bonnie Arogyam Varghese > > <bvargh...@confluent.io.invalid> wrote: > > > > > Hi Liu, > > > The default will be set to enabled which is the current behavior. The > > > option will allow users/platform providers to disable it if they want > to. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 6:39 PM liu ron <ron9....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, Boonie > > > > > > > > I'm with Jark on why disable hint is needed if it won't affect > > security. > > > If > > > > users don't need to use hint, then they won't care about it and I > don't > > > > think it's going to be a nuisance. On top of that, Lookup Join Hint > is > > > very > > > > useful for streaming jobs, and disabling the hint would result in > users > > > not > > > > being able to use it. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > Bonnie Arogyam Varghese <bvargh...@confluent.io.invalid> > 于2023年9月6日周三 > > > > 23:52写道： > > > > > > > > > Hi Liu Ron, > > > > > To answer your question, > > > > > Security might not be the main reason for disabling this option > > but > > > > > other arguments brought forward by Timo. Let me know if you have > any > > > > > further questions or concerns. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 9:35 PM Bonnie Arogyam Varghese < > > > > > bvargh...@confluent.io> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It looks like it will be nice to have a config to disable hints. > > Any > > > > > other > > > > > > thoughts/concerns before we can close this discussion? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 7:43 AM Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > lots of the streaming SQL syntax are extensions of SQL > standard > > > > > >> > > > > > >> That is true. But hints are kind of a special case because they > > are > > > > not > > > > > >> even "part of Flink SQL" that's why they are written in a > comment > > > > > syntax. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Anyway, I feel hints could be sometimes confusing for users > > because > > > > most > > > > > >> of them have no effect for streaming and long-term we could also > > set > > > > > >> some hints via the CompiledPlan. And if you have multiple teams, > > > > > >> non-skilled users should not play around with hints and leave > the > > > > > >> decision to the system that might become smarter over time. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Regards, > > > > > >> Timo > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 17.08.23 18:47, liu ron wrote: > > > > > >> > Hi, Bonnie > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >> Options hints could be a security concern since users can > > > override > > > > > >> > settings. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I think this still doesn't answer my question > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Best, > > > > > >> > Ron > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> 于2023年8月17日周四 19:51写道： > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >> Sorry, I still don't understand why we need to disable the > > query > > > > > hint. > > > > > >> >> It doesn't have the security problems as options hint. Bonnie > > > said > > > > it > > > > > >> >> could affect performance, but that depends on users using it > > > > > >> explicitly. > > > > > >> >> If there is any performance problem, users can remove the > hint. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> If we want to disable query hint just because it's an > extension > > > to > > > > > SQL > > > > > >> >> standard. > > > > > >> >> I'm afraid we have to introduce a bunch of configuration, > > because > > > > > lots > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> >> the streaming SQL syntax are extensions of SQL standard. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Best, > > > > > >> >> Jark > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 at 15:43, Timo Walther < > twal...@apache.org > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >>> +1 for this proposal. > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> Not every data team would like to enable hints. Also because > > > they > > > > > are > > > > > >> an > > > > > >> >>> extension to the SQL standard. It might also be the case > that > > > > custom > > > > > >> >>> rules would be overwritten otherwise. Setting hints could > also > > > be > > > > > the > > > > > >> >>> exclusive task of a DevOp team. > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> Regards, > > > > > >> >>> Timo > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> On 17.08.23 09:30, Konstantin Knauf wrote: > > > > > >> >>>> Hi Bonnie, > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>>> this makes sense to me, in particular, given that we > already > > > have > > > > > >> this > > > > > >> >>>> toggle for a different type of hints. > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>>> Best, > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>>> Konstantin > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>>> Am Mi., 16. Aug. 2023 um 19:38 Uhr schrieb Bonnie Arogyam > > > > Varghese > > > > > >> >>>> <bvargh...@confluent.io.invalid>: > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>>>> Hi Liu, > > > > > >> >>>>> Options hints could be a security concern since users > can > > > > > >> override > > > > > >> >>>>> settings. However, query hints specifically could affect > > > > > >> performance. > > > > > >> >>>>> Since we have a config to disable Options hint, I'm > > suggesting > > > > we > > > > > >> also > > > > > >> >>> have > > > > > >> >>>>> a config to disable Query hints. > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 9:41 AM liu ron < > ron9....@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> Hi, > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> Thanks for driving this proposal. > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> Can you explain why you would need to disable query hints > > > > because > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> >>>>>> security issues? I don't really understand why query > hints > > > > > affects > > > > > >> >>>>>> security. > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> Best, > > > > > >> >>>>>> Ron > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> Bonnie Arogyam Varghese <bvargh...@confluent.io.invalid> > > > > > >> >> 于2023年8月16日周三 > > > > > >> >>>>>> 23:59写道： > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Platform providers may want to disable hints completely > > for > > > > > >> security > > > > > >> >>>>>>> reasons. > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Currently, there is a configuration to disable OPTIONS > > hint > > > - > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://nightlies.apache.org/flink/flink-docs-master/docs/dev/table/config/#table-dynamic-table-options-enabled > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> However, there is no configuration available to disable > > > QUERY > > > > > >> hints > > > > > >> >> - > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://nightlies.apache.org/flink/flink-docs-release-1.17/docs/dev/table/sql/queries/hints/#query-hints > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> The proposal is to add a new configuration: > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Name: table.query-options.enabled > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Description: Enable or disable the QUERY hint, if > > disabled, > > > an > > > > > >> >>>>>>> exception would be thrown if any QUERY hints are > specified > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Note: The default value will be set to true. > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
