I think Martijn and Markos brought up a few good points: - We shouldn't degrade the accessibility but ideally improve it as part of the redesign. The current proposal doesn't look like we're doing changes in a way that it lowers the accessibility (considering that the menu structure stays the same and there are no plans to replace text with images). But nonetheless, it would be good to have this topic explicitly covered in the FLIP.
- I see Markos' concern about the white vs black background (Flink documentation vs Flink website): Does it make a big difference to change to a white background design? The switch to dark mode could happen after a similar (or the same) theme is supported by the documentation. Or are there other reasons why the dark background is favorable? Best, Matthias On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 12:28 PM Markos Sfikas <markos.sfi...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote: > +1 Thanks for proposing this FLIP, Deepthi. > > The designs on FLIP-333 [1] look fresh and modern and I feel they achieve > the goal in general. > > A couple of suggestions from my side could be the following: > > [a] Assuming that no changes are implemented to the Flink documentation, I > would like to see a visual with a 'white background' instead of the 'dark > mode'. This is primarily for two reasons: Firstly, it provides a more > consistent experience for the website visitor going from the home page to > the documentation (instead of switching from dark to white mode on the > website) and secondly, from an accessibility and inclusivity perspective > that was mentioned earlier, we should give the option to either switch > between dark and white mode or have something that is universally easy to > read and consume (not everyone is comfortable reading white text on dark > background). > > [b] Regarding structuring the home page, right now the Flink website has > use cases blending with what seems to be Flink's 'technical > characteristics' (i.e. the sections that talk about 'Guaranteed > correctness', 'Layered APIs', 'Operational Focus', etc.). As someone new to > Flink and considering using the technology, I would like to understand > firstly the use cases and secondly dive into the characteristics that make > Flink stand out. I would suggest having one 'Use Cases' section above the > 'technical characteristics' to have a separation between the two and easily > navigate to the Flink use cases pages [2] directly from this section.\ > > Thank you > Markos > > [1] > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-333%3A+Redesign+Apache+Flink+website > [2] https://flink.apache.org/use-cases/ > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 10:46 AM Martijn Visser <martijnvis...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > +0. I think it has to grow on me. A couple of things from my end: > > > > - Have we evaluated if these new designs are an improvement on W3C's > > Accessibility, Usability & Inclusion? [1]. It is something that the ASF > > rightfully emphasises. > > - "there is general consensus in the community that the Flink > documentation > > is very well-organized and easily searchable." -> That's actually not the > > case, there are numerous FLIPs on this topic [2] [3] which haven't been > > concluded/implemented. > > - I don't think we should put the links to the Github repo and the blog > > posts in the footer: these are some of the most read/visited links. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Martijn > > > > [1] > https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/ > > [2] > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=127405685 > > [3] > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-42%3A+Rework+Flink+Documentation > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:31 PM Maximilian Michels <m...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > > +1 > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 10:45 AM Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > On 16/07/2023 08:10, Mohan, Deepthi wrote: > > > > > @Chesnay > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your feedback. > > > > > > > > > > An important takeaway from the previous discussion [1] and your > > > feedback was to keep the design and text/diagram changes separate as > each > > > change for text and diagrams likely require deeper discussion. > Therefore, > > > as a first step I am proposing only UX changes with minimal text > changes > > > for the pages mentioned in the FLIP. > > > > > > > > > > The feedback we received from customers cover both aesthetics and > > > functional aspects of the website. Note that most feedback is focused > > only > > > on the main Flink website [2]. > > > > > > > > > > 1) New customers who are considering Flink have said about the > > website > > > “there is a lot going on”, “looks too complicated”, “I am not sure > *why* > > I > > > should use this" and similar feedback. The proposed redesign in this > FLIP > > > helps partially address this category of feedback, but we may need to > > make > > > the use cases and value proposition “pop” more than we have currently > > > proposed in the redesign. I’d like to get the community’s thoughts on > > this. > > > > > > > > > > 2) On the look and feel of the website, I’ve already shared > feedback > > > prior that I am repeating here: “like a wiki page thrown together by > > > developers.” Customers also point out other related Apache project > > > websites: [3] and [4] as having “modern” user design. The proposed > > redesign > > > in this FLIP will help address this feedback. Modernizing the look and > > feel > > > of the website will appeal to customers who are used to what they > > encounter > > > on other contemporary websites. > > > > > > > > > > 3) New and existing Flink developers have said “I am not sure what > > the > > > diagram is supposed to depict” - referencing the main diagram on [2] > and > > > have said that the website lacks useful graphics and colors. Apart from > > > removing the diagram on the main page [2], the current FLIP does > propose > > > major changes to diagrams in the rest of website and we can discuss > them > > > separately as they become available. I’d like to keep the FLIP focused > > only > > > on the website redesign. > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, to Chesnay’s point in the earlier discussion in [1], I > do > > > not want to boil the ocean with all the changes at once. In this FLIP, > my > > > proposal is to first work on the UX design as that gives us a good > > starting > > > point. We can use it as a framework to make iterative changes and > > > enhancements to diagrams and the actual website content incrementally. > > > > > > > > > > I’ve added a few more screenshots of additional pages to the FLIP > > that > > > will give you a clearer picture of the proposed changes for the main > > page, > > > What is Flink [Architecture, Applications, and Operations] pages. > > > > > > > > > > And finally, I am not proposing any tooling changes. > > > > > > > > > > [1] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/c3pt00cf77lrtgt242p26lgp9l2z5yc8 > > > > > [2]https://flink.apache.org/ > > > > > [3] https://spark.apache.org/ > > > > > [4] https://kafka.apache.org/ > > > > > > > > > > On 7/13/23, 6:25 AM, "Chesnay Schepler" <ches...@apache.org > > <mailto: > > > ches...@apache.org>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do > > > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender > and > > > know the content is safe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 13/07/2023 08:07, Mohan, Deepthi wrote: > > > > >> However, even these developers when explicitly asked in our > > > conversations often comment that the website could do with a redesign > > > > > > > > > > Can you go into more detail as to their specific concerns? Are > there > > > > > functional problems with the page, or is this just a matter of "I > > don't > > > > > like the way it looks"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What had they trouble with? Which information was > > > > > missing/unnecessary/too hard to find? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The FLIP states that "/we want to modernize the website so that new > > and > > > > > existing users can easily find information to understand what Flink > > is, > > > > > the primary use cases where Flink is useful, and clearly understand > > its > > > > > value proposition/." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the mock-ups I don't /really/ see how these stated goals are > > > > > achieved. It mostly looks like a fresh coat of paint, with a > > compressed > > > > > nav bar (which does reduce how much information and links we throw > at > > > > > people at once (which isn't necessarily bad)). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you go into more detail w.r.t. to the proposed > > > > > text/presentation/diagram changes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I assume you are not proposing any tooling changes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
