I have to admit, I also (weakly) prefer a single workspace where possible. It's easy to miss (or just not look at) the apache-flink workspace because I didn't think of it.
The spam and spam account issues are probably inevitable for any slack workspace as it grows, and we can probably reasonably expect to deal with it in apache-flink as well if it grows significantly popular. Have we seen any spammy issues so far at 1362 members (as opposed to the-asf's 11433 members?) All my best, Ryan On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 4:51 PM Maximilian Michels <m...@apache.org> wrote: > >On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the > problems / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack? > >- I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one > > I like the idea of having a single workspace for all ASF projects, > similarly > to how we share JIRA, mail servers, or other infrastructure. Sharing > resources usually means there are some constraints but it also has the > upside of solving problems once for all projects. Arguably that's less true > for a cloud product like Slack but some customizations can still be applied > to Slack workspaces to streamline the experience. It looks like the ASF > hasn't come up with a good workflow for projects, e.g. channel moderation. > > It might not be worth migrating back at this point but we can continue the > evaluation at a later time. > > -Max > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 3:31 PM Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-22573 > > > > On 10/11/2022 11:17, Martijn Visser wrote: > > > It was discussed at the latest Apachecon conference by Infra during one > > of > > > the lightning talks. If I recall correctly, it was primarily turned to > > > invite-only due to spam. But definitely good to validate that. > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:09 AM Maximilian Michels <m...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > >> The registration problem should be solvable. Maybe it is due to the > > Slack > > >> pricing model that the ASF Slack is invite-only. I'll ping the > community > > >> mailing list. > > >> > > >> Have these issues at any point been discussed with the ASF? I feel > like > > >> this is one of the examples where a community spins off to do its own > > thing > > >> instead of working together with the foundation. > > >> > > >> -Max > > >> > > >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 10:46 AM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hi everyone, > > >>> > > >>> I agree with Xintong in the sense that I don't see what has changed > > since > > >>> the original decision on this topic. In my opinion, there is a high > > cost > > >> in > > >>> moving to ASF now, namely I fear we will loose many of the >1200 > > members > > >>> and the momentum that I see in the workspace. To me there would need > to > > >> be > > >>> strong reason for reverting this decision now. > > >>> > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> > > >>> Kosntantin > > >>> > > >>> Am Di., 8. Nov. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > > >>> tonysong...@gmail.com>: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi Max, > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for bringing this up. I'm open to a re-evaluation of the > Slack > > >>>> usages. > > >>>> > > >>>> In the initial discussion for creating the Slack workspace [1], > > >>> leveraging > > >>>> the ASF Slack was indeed brought up as an alternative by many > folks. I > > >>>> think we have chosen a dedicated Flink Slack over the ASF Slack > mainly > > >>> for > > >>>> two reasons. > > >>>> - ASF Slack is limited to people with an @apache.org email address > > >>>> - With a dedicated Flink Slack, we have the full authority to manage > > >> and > > >>>> customize it. E.g., archiving / removing improper channels, > reporting > > >> the > > >>>> build and benchmark reports to channels, subscribing and re-post > Flink > > >>> blog > > >>>> posts. > > >>>> As far as I can see, these concerns for the ASF slack have not > changed > > >>>> since the previous decision. > > >>>> > > >>>> On the other hand, could you explain a bit more about what are the > > >>> problems > > >>>> / drawbacks that you see in the current Flink Slack? > > >>>> - I assume having to join too many workspaces counts one > > >>>> > > >>>> Best, > > >>>> > > >>>> Xintong > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> [1] > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n43r4qmwprhdmzrj494dbbwr9w7bbdcv > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 4:51 PM Martijn Visser < > > >> martijnvis...@apache.org> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> If you click on the link from Beam via an incognito window/logged > out > > >>> of > > >>>>> Slack, you will be prompted to provide the workspace URL of the > ASF. > > >> If > > >>>> you > > >>>>> do that, you're prompted for a login screen or you can create an > > >>> account. > > >>>>> Creating an account prompts you to have an @apache.org email > > >> address. > > >>>> See > > >>>>> https://imgur.com/a/jXvr5Ai > > >>>>> > > >>>>> So for me that's a -1 for switching to the ASF workspace. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 10:52 PM Austin Bennett <aus...@apache.org> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> +1 to leveraging the larger ASF Community/Resources Slack Channel > > >>>> rather > > >>>>>> than an independant one ... ASSUMING ANYONE CAN JOIN [ so that > > >> needs > > >>> to > > >>>>> be > > >>>>>> verified ]. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM Maximilian Michels <m...@apache.org > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> There is a way to work around the invite issue. For example, the > > >>> Beam > > >>>>>>> project has a direct invite link which sends you to the #beam > > >>> channel: > > >>>>>>> https://app.slack.com/client/T4S1WH2J3/C9H0YNP3P I'm not 100% > > >> sure > > >>>>>>> whether > > >>>>>>> this link actually works. I've take it from: > > >>>>>>> https://beam.apache.org/community/join-beam/ > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -Max > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 1:48 PM Martijn Visser < > > >>>> martijnvis...@apache.org > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Hi Max, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I wonder how that has played out since the creation of the > > >> Slack > > >>>>>>>> workspace? I haven't been following the Slack communication. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I think it has primarily played a role next to the existing User > > >>>>> mailing > > >>>>>>>> list: lots of user questions. There were maybe a handful of > > >>>>>>> conversations > > >>>>>>>> where the result of the conversation was a request to open a > > >> Jira, > > >>>>>>> create a > > >>>>>>>> FLIP or open up a discussion on the Dev list. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most > > >>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from > > >>>>> joining. > > >>>>>>>> That's only possible to use for those with an @apache.org > > >> e-mail > > >>>>>>> address, > > >>>>>>>> see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html. Anyone else would need > > >>> to > > >>>> be > > >>>>>>>> invited by a committer, but I wouldn't be in favour of needing > > >> to > > >>>>> spend > > >>>>>>>> committers time in adding/inviting members on an ASF Slack > > >>> instance. > > >>>>>>>> Best regards, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Martijn > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM Maximilian Michels < > > >>> m...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> Hey Martijn, hi Chesnay, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that users > > >>> can > > >>>>> join > > >>>>>>>>> any Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> That is one of the main motivations for proposing to move to > > >> the > > >>>> ASF > > >>>>>>>>> Slack. We can create an unlimited number of "flink-XY" channels > > >>> in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> ASF > > >>>>>>>>> Slack, although one or two are probably all we need. It seems > > >>>> logical > > >>>>>>> that > > >>>>>>>>> we share the Slack workspace, just like the other > > >> infrastructure > > >>>> like > > >>>>>>> JIRA, > > >>>>>>>>> mail, Jenkins, web server, etc. I guess I'm just in too many > > >>> Slack > > >>>>>>>>> workspaces already. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> From an ASF standpoint, I think it would be desirable to > > >> channel > > >>>>> people > > >>>>>>>>> into the main workspace to promote the software foundation. > > >> Also, > > >>>> the > > >>>>>>> main > > >>>>>>>>> point of communication should still be the mailing lists. I > > >>> wonder > > >>>>> how > > >>>>>>> that > > >>>>>>>>> has played out since the creation of the Slack workspace? I > > >>> haven't > > >>>>>>> been > > >>>>>>>>> following the Slack communication. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Not to mention that non-committers need to be invited by an > > >> ASF > > >>>>> Slack > > >>>>>>>>> user to be able to join. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> There is an invite link that they can use. Maybe not the most > > >>>>>>>>> straight-forward process but I think it doesn't stop users from > > >>>>>>> joining. > > >>>>>>>>> Linen is pretty nice, especially for making Slack searchable > > >> via > > >>>>> search > > >>>>>>>>> engines. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> -Max > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:44 PM Chesnay Schepler < > > >>>> ches...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> According to Robert linen is supposed to show the entire > > >>> history. > > >>>>>>>>>> On 03/11/2022 14:27, Martijn Visser wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> Addition: I'm not sure if Linen actually provides the > > >> messages > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>>> are > > >>>>>>>>>>> older, but I can't test that since we've only recently > > >>>> integrated > > >>>>>>> it. > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Martijn Visser < > > >>>>>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Max, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From my experience, most ASF projects actually don't use > > >> the > > >>>>>>> official > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack, but their own instance. That has happened with > > >>> Airflow, > > >>>>>>>>>> Iceberg, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hudi etc. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The big problem of using the ASF Slack instance is that > > >> users > > >>>> can > > >>>>>>>>>> join any > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Slack channel, including ones outside of Flink. Not to > > >>> mention > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>>>>>>>> non-committers need to be invited by an ASF Slack user to > > >> be > > >>>> able > > >>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>> join. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the history is mitigated by using the > > >>> service > > >>>>> from > > >>>>>>>>>> Linen > > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.linen.dev/s/apache-flink > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer the current Slack instance of the ASF one. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:14 PM Maximilian Michels < > > >>>>> m...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> A while ago the Flink community decided to create a Slack > > >>>>>>> workspace > > >>>>>>>>>> [1]. I > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wonder, is there a particular reason why we created our > > >> own > > >>>>> Slack > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> workspace > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and do not use the official ASF Slack [2]? It looks like > > >>> most > > >>>>> ASF > > >>>>>>>>>> projects > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> use the official Slack. Using the official Slack makes > > >>>>>>> collaboration > > >>>>>>>>>> with > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> other projects easier but it also comes with additional > > >>>>> benefits, > > >>>>>>>>>> e.g. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> free > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> unlimited history (our current workspace suffers from > > >>> limited > > >>>>>>>>>> history). > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the vote thread[1] mentioned a re-evaluation of the > > >>>>> decision > > >>>>>>>>>> until > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of 2022, I'd like to propose to move our channels > > >> to > > >>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>> official > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ASF Slack workspace. In my eyes, the dedicated workspace > > >> is > > >>> a > > >>>>> bit > > >>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>> an > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> overkill and we're better off joining the rest of the ASF > > >>>>>>> community. > > >>>>>>>>>> Let > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> me > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> know what you think. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -Max > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] > > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/j2kdh3zx6rrb49mz5n2vb06g2knogxdj > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [2] https://infra.apache.org/slack.html > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > >>> https://github.com/knaufk > > >>> > > > > >
