As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you can only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary Xintong! > > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF > Slack instance? > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite > a few people are already on that Slack instance. > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on a > voluntary basis. > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat. > > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth tools" > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs) > > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable. > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool. > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that > goldmine of information. > > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers, > indexing). > > > > > > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. >> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs. >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people >> should / should not do. >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct. >> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users, >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments. >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc. >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.) >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are >> now >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate >> questions on MLs. >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. >> We >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't >> do >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really >> excited >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked & >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such >> success to the global English-speaking community. >> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >> >> Thank you~ >> >> Xintong Song >> >> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >> > >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >> > >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >> > >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >> > >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <dander...@apache.org> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >> > > >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >> > > >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise >> takes >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy >> to do >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help >> from >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >> > > >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going >> on. >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or >> when a >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >> > > >> > > David >> > > >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >> > >> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack >> channel >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is >> raised >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >> > >> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people >> who >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public >> > record at all. >> > >> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst >> case, we >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, >> > >> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >> > >> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <mart...@ververica.com >> > >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >> > >>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not >> indexed >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content >> unless >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed >> and >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There >> are >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also >> see >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >> > >>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a >> lot >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of >> > community rules. >> > >>> >> > >>> Best regards, >> > >>> >> > >>> Martijn >> > >>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >> > >>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pnowoj...@apache.org> >> > wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works >> > great as >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not >> > searchable >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as >> the >> > result >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design >> > doc. >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In >> the >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, >> > and >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the >> > previous >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the >> > users. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, >> > stackoverflow. >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest >> > at top) >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case >> much >> > >>>> better IMO. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Best, >> > >>>> Piotrek >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >> > napisał(a): >> > >>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* >> > discussed on the >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years >> > ago. On >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about >> > whether >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a >> recent >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative >> communication >> > channels >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having >> such >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many >> projects >> > >>>> > already. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past >> 4 >> > years. >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, >> > and even >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also >> > means more >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. >> > Instead of >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are >> > proposing >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead >> of >> > *moving* >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack >> Workspace >> > as an >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. >> > IIUR, these >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked >> > anything, >> > >>>> > please let me know. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF >> Slack >> > isn't >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather >> > questionable >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone >> > can >> > >>>> > provide >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and >> GitHub. >> > All of >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel >> > requires an >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This >> > minimizes the >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather >> prefer >> > >>>> > something >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll >> > forward this >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > [1] >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d >> > >>>> > [2] >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc >> > >>>> > [3] >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 >> > >>>> > [4] >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts >> > >>>> > [5] >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < >> ches...@apache.org >> > > >> > >>>> > wrote: >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and >> > was >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the >> > >>>> > previously >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but >> the >> > project >> > >>>> > > as a whole. >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing >> list. >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack. >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for >> > opinions >> > >>>> > and >> > >>>> > > use cases. >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a >> > connection to >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more >> social >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and >> > presentations >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help >> set >> > up the >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > Best, >> > >>>> > > Jark >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < >> tonysong...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink >> slack >> > >>>> > >> workspace. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication >> > through >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time >> computing, >> > should >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially >> for >> > ad-hoc >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors >> from >> > >>>> > different >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to >> > provide a >> > >>>> > common >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd >> > propose to >> > >>>> > create >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the >> Flink >> > PMC. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely >> > overlooked. >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions >> > that help >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, >> > temporal >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather >> than a >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should >> still >> > be >> > >>>> > able to >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That >> means: >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions >> should >> > be >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to >> the >> > Apache >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen. >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on >> > slack. >> > >>>> > Long >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be >> > posted on >> > >>>> > the >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time >> > >>>> > discussion. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be >> > responsive. We >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are >> > volunteers. >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when >> all >> > the >> > >>>> > peers >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not >> > expect >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is >> > its lack >> > >>>> > of >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. >> > There are >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first >> > step, we may >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the >> > mailing >> > >>>> > lists. >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to >> the >> > mailing >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and >> searchability. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache >> > hosted or >> > >>>> > not) >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], >> > HBase [4] >> > >>>> > >> etc. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need >> an >> > official >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to >> > that, I’d >> > >>>> > like >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >> > >>>> > >> [4] >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack >> > >>>> > >> >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > >> > >> >
