Thanks everyone for this lively discussion and all your thoughts.
Let me try to summarise the current state of the discussion and then let's
see how we can move it forward.
To begin with, I think everyone agrees that we want to improve Flink's user
experience. In particular, we want to improve the experience of first time
users who want to try out Flink's SQL functionality.
The problem which stands in the way of a good user experience is that the
current Flink distribution contains too few dependencies for a smooth first
time SQL experience and too many dependencies for a lean production setup.
Hence, Aljoscha proposed to create a "fat" and "slim" Flink distribution
addressing these two differing needs.
As far as the discussion goes there are two remaining discussion points.
1. How do we serve the different types of distributions?
a) Create a "fat" and "slim" distribution which is served from the Flink
web site.
b) Create a "slim" distribution which is served from the Flink web site and
have a tool (e.g. script) which can turn a slim distribution into a fat
distribution by downloading additional dependencies.
For a) speaks that it is simpler and does not require the user to execute
an additional step. The downside is that we will add another dimension to
the release matrix which will complicate the release process (see Chesnay's
last comment for more details).
For b) speaks that it is potentially the more general solution as we can
provide different options for different distributions (e.g. choosing a
connector version, required filesystems, metric reporters, etc.). The
downside is the additional step for the user and that we need such a tool
(which in itself could be quite complex).
2. What is contained in the "fat" distribution?
The current proposal is to move everything which can be moved from opt to
the plugins directory to the plugins directory (metric reporters and
filesystems). That way the user will be able to use all of these
implementations without running into dependency conflicts.
For the SQL support, Aljoscha proposed to add:
flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
flink-json-1.10.0.jar
flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
sql-connectors-formats
How to move forward from here?
Given that the time until the feature freeze is limited I would actually
propose to follow the simplest approach which is the creation of two
distributions ("fat" & "slim"). We can still rethink this decision at a
later point and introduce a tool which allows to download a custom build
Flink distribution. At this point we could then remove the "fat" jar from
the web site. Of course, this comes at the cost of increased release
complexity but I believe that the user experience will make up for it.
For the what to include, I think we could take Aljoscha's proposal and then
see what other dependencies the most common SQL use cases require. I guess
that the SQL guys know quite precisely where the users run into problems.
I know that this solution might not be perfect (in particular wrt releases)
but I hope that everyone could live with this solution for the time being.
Feel free to add anything I might have forgotten to mention here.
Cheers,
Till
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:43 AM Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org>
wrote:
> It would be good if we could nail down what a slim/fat distribution
> would look like, as there are various ideas floating around in this thread.
>
> Like, what is a "slim" distribution? Are we just emptying /opt? Removing
> everything larger than 1mb? Are we throwing out the Table API from /lib
> for a minimal streaming distribution?
> Are we going ham and remove the YARN integration from the flink-dist jar?
>
> While I can see how a fat distribution can certainly help for the
> out-of-the-box experience, I'm not so sold on the slim variant.
> If someone is capable of assembling a distribution matching to their
> use-case, do they even need a slim distribution in the first place?
>
> I really want us to stick to 1 distribution type, as I'm worried about
> the implications of 2 or FWIW any number of additional distribution types:
>
> - you need separate assemblies, including a new profile
> - adjusting opt/plugins and making sure the examples match the
> bundled contents (e.g., no gelly/python, maybe some SQL examples if
> there are any that use a connector)
> - another 300mb uploaded to dist.apache.org + whatever the fat
> distribution grows by x3 (scala 2.11/2.12 + python)
> - the latter naturally being susceptible to additional growth in
> the future
> - this is also a pain for release managers since SVN likes to throw
> up if the upload is too large + it increases upload time
> - another 2 distributions to test during a release
> - another distribution type we need to test via CI
> - more content downloaded into the docker images by default
> - unless of course we release separate slim/fat images (where we
> would then circle back to the above 2 points, just docker-flavored)
> - any further addition to the release matrix implies an additional 4
> distributions => long-term ramifications
> - e.g., another scala version
>
> On 24/04/2020 15:15, Kurt Young wrote:
> > +1 for "slim" and "fat" solution. One comment about the fat one, I think
> we
> > need to
> > put all needed jars into /lib (or /plugins). Put jars into /opt and
> relying
> > on users moving
> > them from /opt to /lib doesn't really improve the out-of-box experience.
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:28 PM Aljoscha Krettek <aljos...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> re (1): I don't know about that, probably the people that did the
> >> metrics reporter plugin support had some thoughts about that.
> >>
> >> re (2): I agree, that's why I initially suggested to split it into
> >> "slim" and "fat" because our current "medium fat" selection of jars in
> >> Flink dist does not serve anyone too well. It's too fat for people that
> >> want to build lean application images. It's to lean for people that want
> >> a good first out-of-box experience.
> >>
> >> Aljoscha
> >>
> >> On 17.04.20 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
> >>> @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the swift-fs
> >> may
> >>> be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
> >>>
> >>> I would still drop two more thoughts:
> >>>
> >>> (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
> metrics
> >>> reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't spoil
> the
> >>> class path any more.
> >>>
> >>> (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal" docker
> >>> file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
> >>> possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be the
> >>> default, though.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <aljos...@apache.org
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can be nice
> >>>> but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The initial
> >>>> observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt and I
> >>>> talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and other
> >>>> support channels have problems when first using the SQL client because
> >>>> of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having additional
> tools
> >>>> would not solve anything because they would also not take that extra
> >>>> step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because the
> >>>> annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that we
> want
> >>>> to have.
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the "fat"/"slim" idea
> >>>> and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
> >>>> mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
> >>>>
> >>>> 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> >>>> 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 160M opt
> >>>>
> >>>> The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
> >>>>
> >>>> I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what I
> got:
> >>>>
> >>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 24M sql-connectors-formats
> >>>>
> >>>> We could just add these to the Flink distribution without blowing it
> up
> >>>> by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem" connectors
> from
> >>>> opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size of
> Flink
> >>>> dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
> >>>>
> >>>> We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to pick-up
> >>>> the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add them
> to
> >>>> lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client jar,
> >>>> which is also not in lib/.
> >>>>
> >>>> What do you think?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>
> >>>> On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And the
> >>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
> >>>>> All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I think
> this
> >>>> step
> >>>>> can't be omitted anyway).
> >>>>> We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
> default
> >>>>> selects some popular connectors.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Jark
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <rafi.ar...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a look at
> >>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/
> >>>>>> You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the project
> >>>> homepage.
> >>>>>> Rafi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem go away,
> >> and
> >>>>>>> you're right that only hides the problem for
> >>>>>>> some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem for 90%
> >>>> users?
> >>>>>>> Would't that be good enough for us to try?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regarding to would users following instructions really be such a
> big
> >>>>>>> problem?
> >>>>>>> I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions for at
> least
> >> a
> >>>>>>> dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
> >>>>>>> up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such
> questions
> >>>>>> every
> >>>>>>> day.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>> Kurt
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >> ches...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The problem with having a distribution with "popular" stuff is
> that
> >> it
> >>>>>>>> doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for users who
> >> fall
> >>>>>>>> into these particular use-cases.
> >>>>>>>> Move out of it and you once again run into exact same problems
> >>>>>> out-lined.
> >>>>>>>> This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you have to deal
> >> with
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is easier.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Would users following instructions really be such a big problem?
> >>>>>>>> I would expect that users generally know *what *they need, just
> not
> >>>>>>>> necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get which jar,
> >>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>> directory to put it in).
> >>>>>>>> It seems like these are exactly the problem this would solve?
> >>>>>>>> I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some feature
> from
> >>>>>> opt
> >>>>>>>> to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than just
> >>>> selecting
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> feature and having the tool handle the rest.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the tool
> would
> >>>>>> take.
> >>>>>>>> It could be an application that runs locally and works against
> maven
> >>>>>>>> central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this should would
> >> work
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> China, no?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know how feasible
> >>>> this
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> with the ASF infrastructure.
> >>>>>>>> You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the load can't
> >> be
> >>>>>>>> distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Note that third-parties could also start distributing use-case
> >>>> oriented
> >>>>>>>> distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as I'm
> >> concerned.
> >>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The concern I
> >> have
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> this approach is the final generated
> >>>>>>>> distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might generate too
> >> many
> >>>>>>>> different combinations when user trying to
> >>>>>>>> package different types of connector, format, and even maybe
> hadoop
> >>>>>>>> releases. As far as I can tell, most open
> >>>>>>>> source projects and apache projects will only release some
> >>>>>>>> pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
> >>>>>>>> familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have went
> through
> >>>> in
> >>>>>>>> some cases, users will try to re-distribute
> >>>>>>>> the release package, because of the unstable network of apache
> >> website
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>> China. In web tool solution, I don't
> >>>>>>>> think this kind of re-distribution would be possible anymore.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall back into
> >> our
> >>>>>>> trap
> >>>>>>>> again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
> >>>>>>>> solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such mechanism.
> >>>> It's
> >>>>>>>> exactly the situation what we currently fell
> >>>>>>>> into:
> >>>>>>>> 1. We offered a smart solution.
> >>>>>>>> 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
> >>>>>>>> 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed the right
> >>>>>>>> instructions.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second step
> >> correctly.
> >>>>>>> And
> >>>>>>>> for new users who only trying to have a quick
> >>>>>>>> experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it wrong.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
> >>>>>>>> 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product users and
> >> provide
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>>> distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
> >>>>>>>> 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some popular
> builtin
> >>>>>> jars.
> >>>>>>>> If we are trying to reduce the distributions we released, I would
> >>>>>> prefer
> >>>>>>> 2
> >>>>>>>> 1.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Kurt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
> trohrm...@apache.org
> >>>> <
> >>>>>>> trohrm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the ideal
> solution.
> >>>>>>>> Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the website which
> >>>>>>> generates
> >>>>>>>> the corresponding distribution for download.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To get things started we could start with only supporting to
> >>>>>>>> download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The fat
> version
> >>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>> then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we deem
> important
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> new users to get started.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Till
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> >>>>>>> dwysakow...@apache.org> <dwysakow...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Few points from my side:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for first time
> >> users.
> >>>>>>>> As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that in this
> >> case I
> >>>>>>>> would expect users to combine their distribution manually. I think
> >> in
> >>>>>>>> such scenarios it is important to understand interconnections.
> >>>>>>>> Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution that I
> can
> >>>>>>>> extend further with what I need in my production scenario.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of possible
> >>>>>>>> combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we want to
> have a
> >>>>>>>> distribution for:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
> >> include
> >>>>>>>> hive? which other catalog?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution as a
> release
> >>>>>>>> artifact.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating how we can
> >>>>>> improve
> >>>>>>>> users experience. What do you think of providing a tool, could be
> >> e.g.
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> shell script that constructs a distribution based on users
> choice. I
> >>>>>>>> think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
> >>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the difference
> >>>>>>>> between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we put into
> the
> >>>>>>>> lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. Which API are you interested in:
> >>>>>>>> a. SQL API
> >>>>>>>> b. DataStream API
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use? [multichoice]:
> >>>>>>>> a. Kafka
> >>>>>>>> b. Elasticsearch
> >>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Such a tool would download all the dependencies from maven and put
> >>>> them
> >>>>>>>> into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it with
> >>>> additional
> >>>>>>>> rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time with
> >>>>>>>> kafka-universal etc.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we release
> >> could
> >>>>>>>> remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might be missing
> >>>>>>>> something here though.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dawdi
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is about
> improving
> >>>>>>>> the situation both for first-time users and for experienced users
> >> that
> >>>>>>>> want to use a Flink dist in production. The current Flink dist is
> >> too
> >>>>>>>> "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for production
> >>>>>>>> users, that is where serving no-one properly with the current
> >>>>>>>> middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those specialized
> >>>>>>>> "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> By the way, at some point in the future production users might not
> >>>>>>>> even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be able to have
> >>>>>>>> Flink as a dependency of their project (including the runtime) and
> >>>>>>>> then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat jar for
> YARN.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different kinds of
> >> jobs
> >>>>>>>> may
> >>>>>>>> prefer different type of distribution:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat distribution
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> containing
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> connectors because user would always need to depend on the
> connector
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in the user
> lib.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Less
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to user pure
> >>>>>>>> sql(DDL +
> >>>>>>>> DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user experience,
> It
> >>>>>>>> may be
> >>>>>>>> important for flink, not only providing as many connector jar in
> >>>>>>>> distribution as possible especially the connector and format we
> have
> >>>>>>>> well
> >>>>>>>> documented, but also providing an mechanism to load connectors
> >>>>>>>> according
> >>>>>>>> to the DDLs,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So I think it could be good to place connector/format jars in some
> >>>>>>>> dir like
> >>>>>>>> opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
> introduce
> >> a
> >>>>>>>> mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Wenlong
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com
> >
> >> <
> >>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I am thinking both "improve first experience" and "improve
> >> production
> >>>>>>>> experience".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
> >>>>>>>> Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of Hive server
> >>>>>>>> versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1 dependency.
> >>>>>>>> Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's not talk
> >>>>>>>> about hive.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is (related
> to
> >>>>>>>> connectors):
> >>>>>>>> - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
> >>>>>>>> - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
> >>>>>>>> - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
> >>>>>>>> So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used. Of course,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> includes CSV, JSON's formats.
> >>>>>>>> So when we provide such a fat distribution:
> >>>>>>>> - With CSV, JSON.
> >>>>>>>> - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
> >>>>>>>> - With flink-jdbc.
> >>>>>>>> Using this fat distribution, most users can run their jobs well.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> (jdbc
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
> >>>>>>>> Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only Kafka may
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to support
> all
> >>>>>>>> Kafka
> >>>>>>>> versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of users.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We don't want to plug all jars into the fat distribution. Only
> need
> >>>>>>>> less
> >>>>>>>> conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of consideration to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> put
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> which jar into fat distribution.
> >>>>>>>> We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of users, but
> >>>>>>>> also left
> >>>>>>>> opportunities for customization.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> <
> >>>>>>> imj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think we should first reach an consensus on "what problem do we
> >>>>>>>> want to
> >>>>>>>> solve?"
> >>>>>>>> (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production
> experience?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think what we
> >>>>>>>> want to
> >>>>>>>> solve is the "first experience".
> >>>>>>>> And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution for
> >>>>>>>> production,
> >>>>>>>> because it's easier to assembling jars
> >>>>>>>> than excluding jars and can avoid potential class conflicts.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If we want to improve "first experience", I think it make sense to
> >>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>> fat distribution to give users a more smooth first experience.
> >>>>>>>> But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or something
> >>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>> that to explicitly differ from the "slim production-purpose
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> distribution".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The "playground distribution" can contains some widely used jars,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> universal-kafka-sql-connector, elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
> >>>>>>>> json,
> >>>>>>>> csv, etc..
> >>>>>>>> Even we can provide a playground docker which may contain the fat
> >>>>>>>> distribution, python3, and hive.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Jark
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <
> ches...@apache.org>
> >> <
> >>>>>>> ches...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't see a lot of value in having multiple distributions.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could provide
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
> >>>>>>>> If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then maybe
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> should be added to the current distribution.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Personally though I still believe we should only distribute a slim
> >>>>>>>> version. I'd rather have users always add required jars to the
> >>>>>>>> distribution than only when they go outside our "expected"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> use-cases.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e., tooling
> to
> >>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions and/or better error messages if
> >>>>>>>> Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about the "fat"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "slim"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> solution though. I get the idea
> >>>>>>>> that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than current
> >>>>>>>> distribution, but what about the "fat"
> >>>>>>>> one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors and formats
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> into
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> this? I'm not sure if this is
> >>>>>>>> feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of kafka and hive
> >>>>>>>> connector jars into lib directory, and
> >>>>>>>> we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem connector to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> access
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> data from HDFS.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> frequently
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> connectors and formats
> >>>>>>>> into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned above,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> leave some other connectors out of it.
> >>>>>>>> If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> distribution
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
> >>>>>>>> providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some costs to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> provide
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> another suit of distribution).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What do you think?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Kurt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Big +1.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I like "fat" and "slim".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small and don't
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> important
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> to upcoming file system connector too.
> >>>>>>>> So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> important,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> they're so lightweight.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <godfre...@gmail.com>
> <
> >>>>>>> godfre...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Big +1.
> >>>>>>>> This will improve user experience (special for Flink new users).
> >>>>>>>> We answered so many questions about "class not found".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Godfrey
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dian Fu <dian0511...@gmail.com> <dian0511...@gmail.com>
> >> 于2020年4月15日周三
> >>>>>>> 下午4:30写道：
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> +1 to this proposal.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink users.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Currently,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`, he has
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> manually
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> directory
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally. This
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> process
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>> Dian
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> <imj...@gmail.com>
> >> 写道：
> >>>>>>>> +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download additional jar"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> step
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> really verbose when I prepare webinars.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> distribution,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Jark
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <zjf...@gmail.com> <
> >>>>>>> zjf...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Aljoscha,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> put
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> connectors ? opt or lib ?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Aljoscha Krettek <aljos...@apache.org> <aljos...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
> >>>>>>>> 下午3:30写道：
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Flink
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> distribution. The motivation is that there is friction for
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> SQL/Table
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> API
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> users that want to use Table connectors which are not there
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow is
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> currently
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> roughly:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - download Flink dist
> >>>>>>>> - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
> >>>>>>>> - run SQL client or program
> >>>>>>>> - decrypt error message and research the solution
> >>>>>>>> - download additional connector jars
> >>>>>>>> - program works correctly
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Distribution
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
> >>>>>>>> - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> determined which one)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And yes, I realize that there are already more dimensions of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Flink
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> releases (Scala version and Java version).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For background, our current Flink dist has these in the opt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> directory:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>> - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> opt
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the large
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> majority
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the files in opt are probably unused.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What do you think?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Best Regards
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Jeff Zhang
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>
>
