lol... I like that :P 2014-10-10 12:09 GMT-05:00 Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com>:
> On Oct 10, 2014 10:05 AM, "Brian LeRoux" <b...@brian.io> wrote: > > > > OR we move to named releases externally. > > > > Cordova MX === 4.0 > > Cordova Mexico? > > > On Oct 10, 2014 10:03 AM, "Michal Mocny" <mmo...@chromium.org> wrote: > > > > > 4 was also discussed as fine, and in isolation would have been our > choice > > > for sure -- but we worried that with the impending "cordova-4.0" > releases, > > > it would confuse users and not mark a clear departure from cadver. > > > > > > The more I think about it though, the less important I think that worry > > > is. Maybe 4.0 is fine. > > > > > > (Apologies to Steve, who just wants to get this over with) > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote: > > > > > > > As is 4. > > > > > > > > This is more of an outreach, marketing, blogging, tweeting, etc > problem. > > > > Versions are for issue tracking not marketing. (Tho semver and our > > > > respective $BIGCO's confuse that to their and our continued strife.) > > > > > > > > (All IMO of course, happy to follow the wisdom of the crowd on this > one.) > > > > On Oct 10, 2014 9:29 AM, "Michal Mocny" <mmo...@chromium.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > 5 is also fine. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I am against it. Its not going to achieve the goal of alleviating > > > > > > confusion. People see the CLI as the version not the platforms. > I'd > > > > > rather > > > > > > we went to 5 if anything. > > > > > > On Oct 9, 2014 3:56 PM, "Parashuram Narasimhan (MS OPEN TECH)" < > > > > > > panar...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I meant tag and start the vote for the next release :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/9/14, 3:01 PM, "Chuck Lantz" <cla...@microsoft.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >+1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >From: Jesse [mailto:purplecabb...@gmail.com] > > > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:55 PM > > > > > > > >To: dev@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >+1 to not voting ;) , it implies we will wait 72 hours before > > > moving > > > > > on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >How about if anyone is completely against 10.0.0 they voice it > > > here, > > > > > in > > > > > > > >the next couple hours, otherwise we move forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >@purplecabbage > > > > > > > >risingj.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Steven Gill < > > > stevengil...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't think a vote is necessary. I'd hate to see us resort > to > > > > > voting > > > > > > > >> to solve problems. Voting should be a last resort if > consensus > > > is > > > > > > > >> split. I don't see that in this scenario. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I propose we bumb the version up to 10.0.0. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Parashuram Narasimhan (MS > OPEN > > > > > TECH) < > > > > > > > >> panar...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Lets start with a vote for 10.0.0 ? And if someone feels > > > > strongly > > > > > > > >> > about calling it something the vote could be cancelled !! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > On 10/9/14, 2:41 PM, "Chuck Lantz" <cla...@microsoft.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >Yeah agreed - Vladimir squashed the bug and what was at > once > > > > > point > > > > > > > >> > >to be called 3.7.0 has been mainly waiting on a version > > > number. > > > > > > > >> > >Personally I am fine with 10.0.0 or 5.0.0 - Either send > the > > > > > message > > > > > > > >> > >that platform versions are divorced from the CLI from a > > > > > versioning > > > > > > > >> > >perspective (though behavior is still predictable). Leo > - I > > > > > think > > > > > > > >> > >at least out of the gate devs will likely focus on the > CLI > > > > > version > > > > > > > >> > >as primary. Basically today, the cadence version of the > CLI > > > is > > > > > > > >> > >what people talk about. Heck, Cordova > > > > > > > >> > >3.4.1 was 3.4.0 for all platforms but iOS. The main > message > > > is > > > > > > > >> > >that > > > > > > > >> when > > > > > > > >> > >you platform add android, you may see an npm pull for > > > > > > > >> > >cordova-android@4.3.2 and that is expected. It's just > > > > > formalizing > > > > > > > >> > >the message and allows independent platform rev'ing. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >-Chuck > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >-----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >> > >From: Steven Gill [mailto:stevengil...@gmail.com] > > > > > > > >> > >Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:13 PM > > > > > > > >> > >To: dev@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > >> > >Cc: Michal Mocny; Marcel Kinard > > > > > > > >> > >Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >I think vladimir fixed the bug. We just need to release > now. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >Only thing holding back the release now is consensus on > the > > > > > version > > > > > > > >> > >of the cli. It seemed like most people were leaning > toward > > > > > 10.0.0. > > > > > > > >> > >Should I move forward with that? I would just have to > branch > > > + > > > > > pin > > > > > > > >> > >deps > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >Leo the documentation version dropdown box would be tied > to > > > cli > > > > > > > >>version. > > > > > > > >> > >It still makes sense to copy over platform documentation > into > > > > > > > >> > >platform repos and maybe copy it into docs during > generation > > > > > time. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >As for plugin pinning, plugins have more to do with > > > platforms. > > > > I > > > > > > > >> wouldn't > > > > > > > >> > >say they aren't tied to the cli at all. I understand your > > > point > > > > > > > >>though. > > > > > > > >> > >So far, we haven't had any plugins that won't work with > > > > previous > > > > > > > >> versions > > > > > > > >> > >(As far as I know). We should really fix the engine stuff > for > > > > > > > >> > >plugins so we can keep track of what platforms they work > for. > > > > I'd > > > > > > > >> > >like us to give warnings to users to update their plugins > if > > > > > newer > > > > > > > >>versions are out. > > > > > > > >> > >Cordova info should also dump what versions of plugins > you > > > have > > > > > > > >> installed > > > > > > > >> > >if it doesn't already. In combination with cordova --save > & > > > > > cordova > > > > > > > >> > >--restore, we should be able to recommend a workflow that > is > > > > > easily > > > > > > > >> > >reproducible on any machine. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Chuck Lantz < > > > > > cla...@microsoft.com> > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Okay - so - there's a pretty nasty CLI blocker bug > right > > > now. > > > > > > > >> > >> Plugins with dependencies don't install (this affects > all > > > > > > > >> > >> platforms). In my opinion, we need to get a CLI > release > > > out > > > > > > > >> > >> really soon. Are we closed on this topic, or do we > need to > > > > > look > > > > > > > >> > >> at doing the old process to get this out the door while > we > > > > are > > > > > > > >>still talking? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> There are also a series of other bugs in the currently > > > tagged > > > > > > > >>"3.6.4" > > > > > > > >> > >> platforms for Android, Windows, and Windows Phone 8. > These > > > > can > > > > > > > >> > >> be handled independently, but the CLI bug can't. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-7670 > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> -Chuck > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >> > >> From: Treggiari, Leo [mailto:leo.treggi...@intel.com] > > > > > > > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:23 PM > > > > > > > >> > >> To: Michal Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >> Cc: Marcel Kinard; dev > > > > > > > >> > >> Subject: RE: Independent platform release summary > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> I'll have to admit that this seems a bit weird. That > is, > > > > > > > >> > >> independent versions of the CLI and platforms, with a > > > > "Cordova > > > > > > > >> > >> release" named "something" - e.g. a date? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Imagine a user wants to know whether the new whitelist > > > entry > > > > in > > > > > > > >> > >> config.xml is supported in the versions of CLI and > > > platforms > > > > > that > > > > > > > >> > >> they have - assuming they understand the distinction > > > between > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > >> CLI and platforms to begin with. They use some command > to > > > > list > > > > > > > >> > >> the versions of the "things" (CLI and > > > > > > > >> > >> platforms) they have installed. They go to the > individual > > > > > > > >> > >> documentation of the "things" and try to figure it out. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> The way the Cordova documentation works today is nice > with > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > >> combo box where I can select a Cordova version - 3.6.0, > > > > 3.5.0, > > > > > > > >> > >> ... What would the combo box contain in the new > versioning > > > > > > > >> > >> scheme and how many entries would there be? Are the > > > answers > > > > > > > >>"dates" and "lots of dates"? > > > > > > > >> > >> Or would there be no Cordova version documentation > other > > > than > > > > > an > > > > > > > >> > >> explanation of how to get the list of "things" you > > > currently > > > > > have > > > > > > > >> > >> and where to find the documentation on them. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> To "pin" or not to "pin. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Note that, to me, the pinning choice defines what > happens > > > > when > > > > > I > > > > > > > >> > >>use "cordova {plugin | platform} add foo" with no > specific > > > > > > > >> > >>version specified. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> I've understood, so far at least, that plugins are not > > > pinned > > > > > (an > > > > > > > >> > >> add always fetches something) and platforms are pinned > to a > > > > CLI > > > > > > > >> > >> version (an add tells the CLI that I will be using that > > > > > platform > > > > > > > >> > >> (already > > > > > > > >> > >> installed) for this project). Everything I have read > which > > > > > > > >> > >> includes 1 book and the on-line project documentation, > > > > suggest > > > > > > > >> > >> that, even if not stating it explicitly. E.g. plugins > talk > > > > > about > > > > > > > >> > >> "fetching" and platforms don't. There is a way to > fetch a > > > > > > > >> > >> specific version of platform support. That's good and > if I > > > > do > > > > > > > >> > >> that it is up to me to understand the compatibility of > the > > > > > > > >>specific version I requested. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Is this true? If so then the npm cordova behavior > seems > > > > weird. > > > > > > > >> > >> That is, if I "npm install cordova" I get a set of > pinned > > > > > > > >> > >> platforms. If I "npm update cordova", I get a new CLI > and > > > > > > > >> > >> nothing else - i.e. not the platforms that were pinned > to > > > > that > > > > > > > >>version of the CLI? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Should the plugin and platform 'pin' behavior be the > same? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Should both be pinned? Some may find this alternative > > > > > > > >>"blasphemous" > > > > > > > >> > >> but the core plugin versions tested with a version of > the > > > CLI > > > > > > > >> > >> could be pinned to the version of the CLI. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Should both not be pinned? It would be more consistent > and > > > > if > > > > > > > >> > >> users are OK with plugins being unpinned, why not > > > platforms? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> But maybe plugins and platforms are different. Plugins > are > > > > > > > >> > >> purely run-time code. Platforms are primarily tooling > with > > > > > some > > > > > > > >> > >> run-time > > > > > > > >> code. > > > > > > > >> > >> Does that difference make the current pinning behavior > the > > > > best > > > > > > > >> choice. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Maybe, but personally I would prefer both to be pinned > - > > > > i.e. I > > > > > > > >> > >> install a version of Cordova, and until I update it, > every > > > > > time I > > > > > > > >> > >> add a platform or 'core' plugin, I get the same thing. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Leo > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> From: mmo...@google.com [mailto:mmo...@google.com] On > > > Behalf > > > > > Of > > > > > > > >> Michal > > > > > > > >> > >> Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 1:47 PM > > > > > > > >> > >> To: Treggiari, Leo > > > > > > > >> > >> Cc: Michal Mocny; Marcel Kinard; dev > > > > > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> With this direction, there is no single number. Users > > > should > > > > > not > > > > > > > >> > >> functionally care about CLI version, so there will just > be > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > >> platform versions that matter, really. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Downstreams can of course put labels on combinations of > > > > > versions, > > > > > > > >> > >> so "PhoneGap 4" may be Android 4, iOS 3.8, and etc. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Treggiari, Leo > > > > > > > >> > >> <leo.treggi...@intel.com <mailto: > leo.treggi...@intel.com > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > Did I miss anything? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> I don't think we closed on this (I had to leave the > > > meeting a > > > > > > > >> > >> little > > > > > > > >> > >> early) but a remaining question is how to version what > we > > > > (and > > > > > > > >> > >> users) call "Cordova". Assuming a "Cordova" version is > a > > > > point > > > > > > > >> > >> in time collection of the latest CLI version + platform > > > > > versions > > > > > > > >> > >> + plugin versions. Is the Cordova version semver > (using > > > what > > > > > > > >> > >> algorithm with respect to its contained > > > > > > > >> > >> components) or is that what you meant by ""latest as > of > > > Oct > > > > > > > >> > >> 2014" or something". > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Thanks, > > > > > > > >> > >> Leo > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >> > >> From: mmo...@google.com<mailto:mmo...@google.com> > [mailto: > > > > > > > >> > >> mmo...@google.com<mailto:mmo...@google.com>] On Behalf > Of > > > > > Michal > > > > > > > >> Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 1:13 PM > > > > > > > >> > >> To: Michal Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >> Cc: Marcel Kinard; dev > > > > > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > Thanks > > > > > everyone > > > > > > > >> > >> for participation in what was a long and grueling > > > discussion. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Summary of current proposal: > > > > > > > >> > >> - Cad-ver is dead. > > > > > > > >> > >> - Everything moves Sem-ver, with platforms continuing > from > > > > > > > >> > >> current versions and diverging over time. > > > > > > > >> > >> - CLI potentially gets a significant version bump to > > > showcase > > > > > > > >> > >> this reset (to 5.0 or 10.0, not yet settled) > > > > > > > >> > >> - Pinning default platform versions *will* continue for > the > > > > > time > > > > > > > >> > >> being, but it will be trivial to override the default. > > > > > > > >> > >> - Platforms will have CLI <engine> tag equivalent > (unclear > > > > yet > > > > > if > > > > > > > >> > >> as node peerDependency or otherwise) so devs will know > when > > > > > they > > > > > > > >> > >> need to upgrade/downgrade CLI for non-default platform > > > > > versions. > > > > > > > >> > >> - After a platform update, eventually CLI will release > to > > > > "pin" > > > > > > > >> > >> the new default, and bump its PATCH/MINOR version > (unless > > > CLI > > > > > had > > > > > > > >> > >> a functional update at same time that requires a larger > > > > bump). > > > > > > > >> > >> - After you update CLI, your existing projects don't > > > change & > > > > > > > >> > >> platform upgrades remain explicit, but you will now get > > > > > warnings > > > > > > > >> > >> if your installed platforms are older than the CLI > pinned > > > > > > versions. > > > > > > > >> > >> - Event MAJOR changes to platforms are not MAJOR > updates to > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > >> CLI, unless there is an actual breaking change to the > CLI > > > > tool > > > > > > > >> > >> (i.e. new CLI will no longer work with the currently > > > > installed > > > > > > > >>platform). > > > > > > > >> > >> - Platform and CLI docs have to split out and be > released & > > > > > > > >> > >> versioned alongside each (like plugins). Cross > references > > > > from > > > > > > > >> > >> one to the other will only be needed in a few places. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Note: The CLI-Platform compatibility story is > functionally > > > no > > > > > > > >> > >>different than we have today. If you upgrade your CLI > and > > > > there > > > > > > > >> > >>is a breaking change, you will have to re-create your > > > > projects > > > > > or > > > > > > > >> > >>downgrade CLI again. > > > > > > > >> > >> Now we plan to be more explicit about it and offer > > > warnings. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Note: There is no concept of a "fancy-pants" release > other > > > > than > > > > > > > >> > >> to say "latest as of Oct 2014" or something. Platforms > > > don't > > > > > > > >> > >> have a single common set of functionality, so CadVer > was > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > >> > >> misleading already in that sense. We could introduce a > > > > concept > > > > > > > >> > >> of "API Level" for exec bridge or something for use by > > > > plugins, > > > > > > > >>but not sure that has value. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> What wasn't covered that came to mind after the fact: > > > > > > > >> > >> - When there is an update available for CLI, should we > > > give a > > > > > > > >> > >> warning to update? (this is useful, but isn't common > for > > > npm > > > > > > > >> > >> modules. I think we already do this from plugman when > you > > > > try > > > > > to > > > > > > > >>publish plugins?). > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> Did I miss anything? > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> -Michal > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Michal Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >><mmo...@chromium.org<mailto: > > > > > > > >> > >> mmo...@chromium.org>> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > External Public link for those that just want to > > > > watch/chat: > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > https://plus.google.com/events/cm4l0vifcig920qkhpn5stqiet4 > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > Hangout link to join the conversation: > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcNwXEyet4Xv_23HiTl > > > > > > > >> > >> > 4I K0jsM4NlmGy5kbLsPIW3SnOsUEIQ?authuser=0&hl=en > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > See you in 30 minutes. > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Michal Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >> > <mmo...@chromium.org > > > > > > > >> > >> <mailto:mmo...@chromium.org>> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> +dev list again > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > >> >> Not everyone could make 1pm, not everyone could make > > > 2pm. > > > > > > > >> > >> >> While I don't think we need a full 2 hours, I'm > hoping > > > to > > > > > > > >> > >> >> start late and end early -- proving opportunity > people > > > to > > > > > pop > > > > > > > >> > >> >> in at either time and chime > > > > > > > >> > >> in. > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Marcel Kinard > > > > > > > >> > >> >> <cmarc...@gmail.com<mailto:cmarc...@gmail.com>> > > > > > > > >> > >> >> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> Is the expected duration 1 hour or 2 hours? > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> On Oct 8, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Michal Mocny > > > > > > > >> > >><mmo...@chromium.org<mailto: > > > > > > > >> > >> mmo...@chromium.org>> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > So it looks like Today 1-3 EST or Friday 1-3 EST > are > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > best > > > > > > > >> > >>times. > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> I'm > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > going to start the ball rolling to do this TODAY, > but > > > > if > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > that proves > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> too > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > short notices we'll move it to Friday. > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > I'll email out links to hangout at 12:30 or so, > and > > > I'm > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > hoping Steven > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> can > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > make it before 2pm since he's been most active > with > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > releases > > > > > > > >> > >> recently. > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > -Michal > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > >> > >-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > >> > >For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > >> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: > dev-unsubscr...@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >?B�KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB� > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >?�?[��X��ܚX�K??K[XZ[?�??]�][��X��ܚX�P?�ܙ?ݘK�\?X�?K�ܙ�B��܈?Y??]?[ۘ[??��[X[� > > > > > > > >?�??K[XZ[?�??]�Z?[???�ܙ?ݘK�\?X�?K�ܙ�B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Victor Adrian Sosa Herrera IBM Software Engineer Guadalajara, Jalisco
