Hi all - this looks like a great opp and great topic ideas in the discussion. As this process progresses, would you mind keeping me and @Joe Brockmeier <j...@apache.org> in the loop on who will be attending and corresponding topics? We imagine this is a forum where what's said could make its way to the tech media so we'd love to work with you and offer messaging help where we can.
(BTW - For those of you I haven't met, I just joined Constantia to support the ASF comms and marketing efforts that Joe leads). Thank you! Molly On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 5:58 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > I cannot agree more with all the points you raised, DW. Those reflect > very well my understanding of ASF role and what we can bring to the > table and what are the important parts of what we can advocate for. > > From my side, I would like to bring to the "Practical" workshop (I > sent context to organizers to see how they see it as a topic but I > will explain it here as well). I have a feeling that this might be the > practical side of some of the points raised by DW :) > > The points that I wanted to raise at the workshop was about some of > the aspects of putting in practice what DW described above: > > 1) making sure that community-driven process is established and some > rules of participation are well understood and followed by all > involved parties (individual contributors and stakeholders in projects > particularly) > 2) empowering more individual contributors who are part of the > community and making it replicable to have a model where those > contributors (and future ones) can remain independent, and can afford > spending a lot of (full?) time on being part of the community and can > make decent living from that - at the same time providing stronger > vendor-neutrality properties > 3) ways how 3rd-parties can be involved without taking over the > relationships between contributors and stakeholders > 4) practical ways to achieve that - I have some use-cases and > relationships already established that might show how this can be > possible (based on my example) and proposals what can be done in the > future > > J. > > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 1:08 PM Dirk-Willem van Gulik > <di...@webweaving.org.invalid> wrote: > > > > So I think there are a couple of things I'd personally would like to hit > / speak to at this event. In part as we have other parts of the industry > approaching this much more from a money/company driven (or take your > responsibility) perspective. In priority order: > > > > 1) "Community over Code" and good governance standards > > > > Software in general, and open source software in particular, is becoming > key to civic society - these days you cannot run a country (or even > participate in the democratic process on the legislative side ) without it. > > > > That means that, like all industries that rose to importance, society > increasingly needs to rely on & trust "us". Or ensure it can trust us by > regulation (in a lot of countries - industrial regulation (as opposed to > self regulation, guilds, etc) started to appear when steam-boilers went > bang in the middle of populated areas). > > > > We're simply too important to ignore. > > > > In apache - we understand a lot of this already very well - and have a > culture (community over code) and a set of checks and balances, or > governance, (votes for releases, process, security policies) that is > conductive to deserving that trust. > > > > We do not 'sling code onto github' or over a wall and call it `open > source'-- but rather insist that there is a community behind it. Or retire > it (to the attic) when there is not -- and it would become a risk or > liability because of no maintenance, etc. > > > > => so I would like to further this "community over code" > notion. > > > > And emphasise that just `throwing code over the wall' is not what helps > build a body of (civic, or otherwise) technology that can be the > foundations of a digital public infrastructure or society. > > > > 2) "capacity and capability" > > > > Software is unique and odd - in that you can make perfect copies. And > that the fact that you use it `too' comes at virtually no cost to me. And > if you do & feed me back some small improvement, bug report or something - > it probably is a win-win for me to share it. However that also means that > you need relatively few developers at its core. > > > > This gives rise to two risks you need to negate. Firstly simply that of > knowledge capture and sustainability (capacity is not an issue - few are > needed). Which is not always in the interest of the corporate funders of > the volunteers (e.g. in apache). Nor in the interst of any corporate > funders (period) -- e.g. in cases where sponsors buy board-seats or > strategic control of open source houses. > > > > But secondly - that of ensuring that a sufficiently wide body of people > builds up the capability to participate with, and over time replace, this > relatively small group of core developers. Especially in the light of SaaS > and similar technologie which curtails how many people are close enough to > the coal face to pick up the needed knowledge. Or at companies; where the > existence of readily available large solutions makes picking up on that > skill less needed. > > > > So in a way to break through a `fatal' aspect of well build technology - > that you do not need to know about it anymore. > > > > => so. would like to argue for physical places, of sufficient > size to build the right human culture, to work, learn and build these > critical skills. > > > > and that this is _NOT_ the problem of open source - but the > responsibility of society. > > > > This is not something uncommon - we have plenty of industrial areas > where countries build & keep strategic and tactical capcity. And in Europe > - this is increasingly done pan-european. > > > > 3) "Software matters too much" > > > > Software matters too much for communities and societies -- so I would > personally not want to allow large corporate interest buy themselves > control of this. > > > > I am worried about a self amplifying and 'fiscally welcome' pattern; > where we blame some industry for a problem in society. And were we then > expect 'them' to resolve this; or pay for something as some sort of > penance. But in return then effectively allows the existing and richest > players get even more control over the playing field. > > > > As opposed to letting society set & enforce their vision of what is > right. And either pick up the tab for that - or tax/fine those that do not > comply -and- then allow society to choose where to invest that money in. > Rather than let the inmates run the asylum & direct the funding. > > > > Apache is in a vey good position here - we are one of the defacto > industry bodies - but unlike most - we are a community of (people) > volunteer(ed by their employers dujour) - not a set of companies. In many > ways we are more like the IEEE, the IETF, the institute of chartered > engineers or a medical society - -than say, the GSMA or the W3C. > > > > And we have a stellar track record when it comes to resisting & > neutering such corporate funding / direction attemts. > > > > But the corollary/downside of that is that we're also ill equipped to do > the `boring grunt work' that is often needed once things become so key to > society. Such as secretariat services, testing, certification, measuring > quality & reporting, etc. > > > > => so would like to argue that this is a role for society; and > that we need places where our community can meet which those that want this > - and where those that want this participate in our community. But without > funding `through us' troubling the waters. > > > > Just like we see in many other industries - where some institute simply > acts as the coordinator for such information in the public context. And > this also addresses interoperability and standards. > > > > With kind regards, > > > > Dw > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 Oct 2022, at 12:25, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <j...@nanthrax.net> > wrote: > > > > > > By the way, I'm pretty interested to participate on these workshops: > > > > > > 1.1 - Open Source Processors for the Cloud Continuum > > > 2.1 - Open Source Software and Cloud Services and Applications: On the > > > way to more interoperable cloud services > > > 3.4 - Exploring practical solutions to ensure long term sustainability > > > of open source software > > > > > > I chatted today with some Eclipse Foundation guys: they plan to be > > > there as well. > > > > > > Thoughts ? > > > > > > Regards > > > JB > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:38 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> > wrote: > > >> > > >> Yep. Thanks DW :) > > >> > > >> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 10:43 AM Christofer Dutz > > >> <christofer.d...@c-ware.de> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi all, > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for taking this coordination over. > > >>> > > >>> They did disarm my worries, that the panelists would be from the > industry. It seems this is not the case. > > >>> > > >>> But they do explicitly welcome suggestions for people to be acting > as panelist on these sessions. > > >>> So, we can be more actively involved. If we want to. > > >>> > > >>> And I agree .. this is not something we can sit out like an > ApacheCon CFP and submit ideas a minute before the deadline. > > >>> > > >>> Chris > > >>> > > >>> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org.INVALID> > > >>> Date: Thursday, 27. October 2022 at 10:24 > > >>> To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > >>> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source > Sustainability > > >>> I've been in touch with the various organizers (who do not seem to > be that organised). > > >>> > > >>> Happy to bundle things once we reach some sort of conclusion here. > But suspect we need to do this in the next hours and days; not week. > > >>> > > >>> That said - these meetings are open - so anyone can 'show up' and > participate. In many ways this type of meeting where the EC tries to inform > itself are very much in a spirit akin to open source; just show up, > contribute meaningfully, constructively and have knowledge/information to > bring. > > >>> > > >>> Dw > > >>> > > >>>> On 26 Oct 2022, at 23:14, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Do you have a specific contact or conversation you can forward? Or > is > > >>>> it a generic address we should find ourselves? > > >>>> > > >>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 10:55 PM Christofer Dutz > > >>>> <christofer.d...@c-ware.de> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Hi all, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I think we probably should at least tell them as soon as possible, > that we want to attend and which seessions, which people would be willing > to participate. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> As I mentioned, unfortunately I won’t be able to attend. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Chris > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> From: Jean-Baptiste Onofré <j...@nanthrax.net> > > >>>>> Date: Wednesday, 26. October 2022 at 19:42 > > >>>>> To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: European Commission Workshop day on Open-Source > Sustainability > > >>>>> Hi Chris, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I can be there as well if needed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Regards > > >>>>> JB > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:44 AM Christofer Dutz > > >>>>> <christofer.d...@c-ware.de> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi all, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> as I attended the last set of workshops in pre-pandemic times, it > seems the European Commission is continuing to try to understand > open-source. > > >>>>>> In this quest it seems they are planning on doing a set of > workshops on a one-day session: > > >>>>>> > https://swforum.eu/events/open-source-workshops-computing-sustainability > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> As last time Willem and I traveled there as we didn’t want the > corporates to take over the narrative and explain to the European > commission how Open-Source works, perhaps we should participate. > > >>>>>> I mean … we’re a pretty important factor in open-source, I guess. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> What do you folks think? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Chris > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > >>>> > > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > >> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
