The meeting is on ...
> -----Original Message----- > From: Animesh Chaturvedi [mailto:animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 8:56 PM > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Cc: Steve Wilson > Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process > > Yes I am planning to record the GTM > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstev...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 6:59 PM > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > Cc: Steve Wilson > > Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process > > > > Is it possible to record the meeting? Maybe we can post it so others > > can view it if they are not able to attend (or only become interested > > after the first couple meetings and wants to catch up)? > > > > Will > > On Dec 9, 2014 9:52 PM, "Animesh Chaturvedi" > > <animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com> > > wrote: > > > > > I can setup a GTM since it is free for Citrix. > > > > > > Here are the details. > > > > > > 1. Please join my meeting. > > > https://www1.gotomeeting.com/join/285394368 > > > > > > 2. Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended. > > > Or, call in using your telephone. > > > > > > United States: +1 (213) 493-0008 > > > Argentina (toll-free): 0 800 444 2385 Australia (toll-free): 1 800 > > > 191 358 > > > Australia: +61 2 9091 7603 > > > Austria (toll-free): 0 800 080061 > > > Austria: +43 (0) 7 2088 0716 > > > Bahrain (toll-free): 800 81 305 > > > Belarus (toll-free): 8 820 0011 0331 Belgium (toll-free): 0 800 > > > 81388 > > > Belgium: +32 (0) 28 08 4372 > > > Brazil (toll-free): 0 800 047 4909 > > > Bulgaria (toll-free): 00800 120 4413 Canada (toll-free): 1 877 777 > > > 3281 > > > Canada: +1 (647) 497-9380 > > > Chile (toll-free): 800 395 146 > > > China (toll-free): 4008 866154 > > > Colombia (toll-free): 01 800 012 9057 Czech Republic (toll-free): > > > 800 500453 Denmark (toll-free): 8025 0919 > > > Denmark: +45 (0) 69 91 84 58 > > > Finland (toll-free): 0 800 94473 > > > Finland: +358 (0) 931 58 1773 > > > France (toll-free): 0 805 541 052 > > > France: +33 (0) 170 950 590 > > > Germany (toll-free): 0 800 184 4230 > > > Germany: +49 (0) 692 5736 7300 > > > Greece (toll-free): 00 800 4414 4282 Hong Kong (toll-free): 30774812 > > > Hungary (toll-free): (06) 80 986 259 Iceland (toll-free): 800 9993 > > > India (toll-free): 000 800 100 8227 Indonesia (toll-free): 001 803 > > > 020 2563 Ireland (toll-free): 1 800 818 > > > 263 > > > Ireland: +353 (0) 15 133 006 > > > Israel (toll-free): 1 809 388 020 > > > Italy (toll-free): 800 792289 > > > Italy: +39 0 699 26 68 65 > > > Japan (toll-free): 0 120 242 200 > > > Korea, Republic of (toll-free): 0806180880 Luxembourg (toll-free): > > > 800 > > > 81016 Malaysia (toll-free): 1 800 81 6860 Mexico (toll-free): 01 800 > > > 123 8367 Netherlands (toll-free): 0 800 020 0178 > > > Netherlands: +31 (0) 208 080 759 > > > New Zealand (toll-free): 0 800 47 0051 New Zealand: +64 (0) 9 974 > > > 9579 Norway (toll-free): 800 69 055 > > > Norway: +47 21 04 30 59 > > > Panama (toll-free): 001 800 507 2789 Peru (toll-free): 0 800 55253 > > > Philippines (toll-free): 1 800 1110 1565 Poland (toll-free): 00 800 > > > 3211434 Portugal (toll-free): 800 180 139 Romania (toll-free): 0 800 > > > 410 025 Russian Federation (toll-free): 8 800 100 6914 Saudi Arabia > > > (toll-free): 800 844 3636 Singapore (toll-free): 800 101 3000 South > > > Africa (toll-free): 0 800 555 451 Spain (toll-free): 800 900 593 > > > Spain: +34 931 76 1534 > > > Sweden (toll-free): 020 794 545 > > > Sweden: +46 (0) 852 500 691 > > > Switzerland (toll-free): 0 800 000 452 > > > Switzerland: +41 (0) 435 0026 89 > > > Taiwan (toll-free): 0 800 666 846 > > > Thailand (toll-free): 001 800 852 2442 Turkey (toll-free): 00 800 > > > 4488 > > > 29001 Ukraine (toll-free): 0 800 50 4691 United Arab Emirates > > > (toll-free): 800 044 40444 United Kingdom (toll-free): 0 808 168 > > > 0209 United Kingdom: +44 (0) 20 7151 1817 United States (toll-free): > > > 1 877 > > > 309 2070 Uruguay (toll-free): 000 405 4459 Viet Nam (toll-free): 120 > > > 32 148 > > > > > > Access Code: 285-394-368 > > > Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting > > > > > > Meeting ID: 285-394-368 > > > > > > GoToMeeting® > > > Online Meetings Made Easy® > > > > > > Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from your > > > iPhone®, iPad® or Android® device via the GoToMeeting app. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Pierre-Luc Dion [mailto:pd...@cloudops.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:16 AM > > > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > Cc: Steve Wilson > > > > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process > > > > > > > > Based on Doodle. Meeting is schedule for Dec 10th, 17h00 UTC. > > > freenode: > > > > #cloudstack-meeting unless someone have a GTM. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Daan Hoogland > > > > <daan.hoogl...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > When do we call the result of the doodle? wait for wednesday? > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Chip Childers > > > > > <chipchild...@apache.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for listening to my concerns folks... and I'll be > > > > > > rooting for > > > > > those > > > > > > of you that are "doing" to come up with some better practices > > > > > > for the community to adopt! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi < > > > > > > animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > From: williamstev...@gmail.com > > > > > >> > [mailto:williamstev...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Will Stevens > > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 2:41 PM > > > > > >> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > >> > Cc: Steve Wilson > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I am speaking as a committer who has limited insight into > > > > > >> > the > > > > > 'correct' > > > > > >> way to do > > > > > >> > this via Apache (so be gentle). :) > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I like the idea of a wiki page to help get everyone on the > > > > > >> > same page > > > > > and > > > > > >> to track > > > > > >> > the consensus as we move forward... > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I also agree that it is hard to come to a consensus on the > > > > > >> > list > > > > > because > > > > > >> it is really > > > > > >> > hard to have a constructive conversation on here in a > > > > > >> > timely manner > > > > > >> where the > > > > > >> > different voices can be heard. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I think it would be interesting to schedule > > > > > >> > sessions/meetings on the > > > > > >> list so any > > > > > >> > interested party can join. These sessions/meetings would > > > > > >> > happen in a > > > > > >> format > > > > > >> > like IRC where the transcript of the session can be later > > > > > >> > posted to > > > > > the > > > > > >> list as well > > > > > >> > as a summary of the transcript so it can be reviewed by any > > > > > >> > member who > > > > > >> could > > > > > >> > not make the meeting. This way we keep all of the actual > > > > > >> > conversation > > > > > >> in the > > > > > >> > list, but we also make it easier to actually have a > > > > > >> > 'conversation' at > > > > > >> the same time. > > > > > >> > It is hard to beat real time when working through this sort > > > > > >> > of > > > stuff. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Does this make sense to others? Thoughts? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Will > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > *Will STEVENS* > > > > > >> > Lead Developer > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts > > > > > >> > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w > > > > > >> > cloudops.com > > > > > >> > *|* tw @CloudOps_ > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:17 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi < > > > > > >> > animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Wearing my PMC hat and with past experience on these > > > > > >> > > discussions we have not made much progress on mailing > > > > > >> > > list despite agreeing on the goals and have locked horns. > > > > > >> > > One possibility after reading Chip's email and concerns I > > > > > >> > > see is that, we create a wiki outlining the problem > > > > > >> > > space, possible > > > > > >> > > solution(s) and their specific pros and cons and have > > > > > >> > > people > > > > > >> collaborate. > > > > > >> > > Once a general consensus is there and wiki is stable we > > > > > >> > > can bring it back to the mailing list for final approval. > > > > > >> > > This is open as well as requires participant a higher > > > > > >> > > degree of commitment to collaborate > > > > > and > > > > > >> > > will be more structured. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Thanks > > > > > >> > > Animesh > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Chip Childers > > > > > >> > > > <chipchild...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > Steve, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > (Speaking with my PMC hat on, but not as someone that > > > > > >> > > > > has the > > > > > time > > > > > >> > > > > to help with this process) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > I love the idea of moving forward with resolving some > > > > > >> > > > > of the quality process / tooling / etc... challenges > > > > > >> > > > > that we face as a project and community. I also love > > > > > >> > > > > the idea that companies > > > > > getting > > > > > >> > > > > commercial value from this project are talking (as > > > > > >> > > > > companies) about how to best support the project > > > > > >> > > > > through either directing their employees to work on > > > > > >> > > > > this problem, allowing those > > > > > interested > > > > > >> > > > > the time to do so, and / or offering (as Citrix did) > > > > > >> > > > > required hardware/software resources to make > > > > > >> > > > > improvements for the common good. Importantly, I > > > > > >> > > > > like that the companies involved are mutually > > > > > >> > > > > agreeing that this is for > > > the > > > > common good. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > That said, I have a concern about the outline below, > > > > > specifically > > > > > >> > > > > in how the definition of approach and eventual > > > > > >> > > > > execution are > > > > > >> handled. > > > > > >> > > > > The proposal of taking this off-list until there is a > > > > > >> > > > > "proposal > > > > > to > > > > > >> > > ratify" > > > > > >> > > > > is what I'd like to see changed. I would fully expect > > > > > >> > > > > that a fleshed out proposal hitting the list would be > > > > > >> > > > > met with more discussion than you would like (and > > > > > >> > > > > perhaps even met with > > > > > >> frustration). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > What has worked well for us in the past, where there > > > > > >> > > > > is a need > > > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > have those interested in "doing work" to be able to > > > > > >> > > > > focus on > > > > > that > > > > > >> > > > > work, has been to start with a call for interested > > > > > >> > > > > parties (as > > > > > you > > > > > >> > > > > did). Then, using a combination of threads on this > > > > > >> > > > > list and > > > > > "live" > > > > > >> > > > > meetings, make progress on defining the requirements > > > > > >> > > > > and > > > > > approach > > > > > >> > incrementally. > > > > > >> > > > > Execution of any work should similarly be open and > > > > > >> > > > > shared on > > > > > this > > > > > >> list. > > > > > >> > > > > Throughout that process, allowing comments and > > > > > >> > > > > openings for participants are critical. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > One of the things we learned about using "live" > > > > > >> > > > > meetings to > > > > > speed > > > > > >> > > > > up the consensus process in the past is to make sure > > > > > >> > > > > that while they are fantastic at allowing the > > > > > >> > > > > participants to understand > > > > > each > > > > > >> > > > > other, it's critical to remember that (1) there are > > > > > >> > > > > no project decisions made outside of the mailing > > > > > >> > > > > lists and > > > > > >> > > > > (2) that it's important to have minutes or notes from > > > > > >> > > > > those live meetings > > > > > shared > > > > > >> > > > > with the community as > > > > > >> > > a > > > > > >> > > > whole. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Now a very real concern that some of us have is > > > > > >> > > > > getting bogged down in arguments based on opinion, > > > > > >> > > > > especially the > > > "drive > > > > by" > > > > > >> > > > > opinions. This issue (plus challenges with people > > > > > >> > > > > violently agreeing with each other, yet talking past > > > > > >> > > > > each other), is what > > > > > I > > > > > >> > > > > believe has held up meaningful progress. To deal with > > > > > >> > > > > this, I suggest we all remember that projects at the > > > > > >> > > > > ASF are about supporting those that "DO", while > > > > > >> > > > > giving opportunity for participation and comment from > > > > > >> > > > > those that might not currently be "DOING". But those > > > > > >> > > > > that are doing the work, and collaborating to reach a > > > > > >> > > > > shared goal, shouldn't let a lack of 100% consensus > > > > > >> > > > > on > > > > > >> every > > > > > >> > aspect hold back progress. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > As someone who will not be "doing" anything for this > > > > > >> > > > > effort, but has an interest in maintaining this > > > > > >> > > > > community's health and > > > > > seeing > > > > > >> > > > > it continue to succeed, I hope my suggestions and > > > > > >> > > > > comments are > > > > > >> helpful. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > -chip > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:12:27PM +0000, Steve > > > > > >> > > > > Wilson > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > >> Hi Everyone, > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> It was great to get to see a number of you at the > > > > > >> > > > >> recent CCC in > > > > > >> > > Budapest. > > > > > >> > > > While I was there, I got to meet face to face with > > > > > >> > > > individuals working > > > > > >> > > for several > > > > > >> > > > companies that have a real stake in the commercial > > > > > >> > > > success of the > > > > > >> > > CloudStack > > > > > >> > > > project. > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> After joining Citrix (and becoming involved in > > > > > >> > > > >> CloudStack) > > > > > about > > > > > >> > > > >> a > > > > > >> > > year ago, > > > > > >> > > > I’ve come to believe that we need to do more to mature > > > > > >> > > > our quality > > > > > >> > > practices > > > > > >> > > > around this codebase. We all like to say > > > > > >> > > > #cloudstackworks (and > > > > > it’s > > > > > >> > > true), but > > > > > >> > > > this is a massive codebase that’s used in the most > > > > > >> > > > demanding > > > > > >> > > situations. We > > > > > >> > > > have large telecommunications companies and enterprises > > > > > >> > > > who are betting > > > > > >> > > their > > > > > >> > > > businesses on this software. It has to be great! > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> There has been quite a bit of discussion on the > > > > > >> > > > >> mailing list in > > > > > >> > > recent months > > > > > >> > > > about how we improve in this area. There is plenty of > > > > > >> > > > passion, > > > > > but > > > > > >> > > > we > > > > > >> > > haven’t > > > > > >> > > > made enough concrete progress as a community. In my > > > > > >> > > > discussions with key contributors as CCC, there was > > > > > >> > > > general agreement that the DEV list isn’t > > > > > >> > > a good > > > > > >> > > > forum for hashing out these kinds of things. Email is > > > > > >> > > > too low-bandwidth > > > > > >> > > and too > > > > > >> > > > impersonal. > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> At CCC, I discussed with several people the idea > > > > > >> > > > >> that we commission a > > > > > >> > > small > > > > > >> > > > sub team to go hash out a proposal for how we handle > > > > > >> > > > the following topics within the ACS community (which > > > > > >> > > > can then be brought back to the larger community for > ratification): > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> * Continuous integration and test automation > > > > > >> > > > >> * Gating of commits > > > > > >> > > > >> * Overall commit workflow > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> We are looking for volunteers to commit to being > > > > > >> > > > >> part of this > > > > > >> team. > > > > > >> > > This > > > > > >> > > > would imply a serious commitment. We don’t want > > > > > >> > > > hangers on or > > > > > >> observers. > > > > > >> > > > This will entail real work and late night meetings. > > > > > >> > > > We’re looking for > > > > > >> > > people who > > > > > >> > > > are serious contributors to the codebase. > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> From Citrix, David Nalley and Animesh Chaturvedi > > > > > >> > > > >> have booth > > > > > told > > > > > >> > > > >> me > > > > > >> > > they’re > > > > > >> > > > willing to commit to this project. They’ve both > > > > > >> > > > managed ACS releases > > > > > >> > > and have > > > > > >> > > > a really good view into the current process — and I > > > > > >> > > > know both are > > > > > >> > > passionate > > > > > >> > > > about improving our process. From my CCC discussions, > > > > > >> > > > I believe there > > > > > >> > > are > > > > > >> > > > individuals from Schuberg Philis, Shape Blue and Cloud > > > > > >> > > > Ops who are > > > > > >> > > willing to > > > > > >> > > > commit to this process. > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> If you are willing to be part of this team to drive > > > > > >> > > > >> forward our > > > > > >> > > community, > > > > > >> > > > please reply here. > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> -Steve > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> Steve Wilson > > > > > >> > > > >> VP & Product Unit Manager Cloud Software Citrix > > > > > >> > > > >> @virtualsteve > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > -- > > > > > >> > > > Daan > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Daan > > > > > > > >
