Hi, To clarify are you saying that we should not accept AI generated code until it has been looked at by a human and then written again with different "wording" to ensure that it doesn't directly copy anything?
Or do you mean something else about the quality of "vibe coding" and how we shouldn't allow it because it makes bad code? Ultimately it's the contributor's (and committer's) job to ensure that their contributions meet the bar for acceptance and I don't think we should tell them how to go about meeting that bar beyond what is needed to address the copyright concern. I agree that the bar set by the Apache guidelines are pretty high. They are simultaneously impossible and trivial to meet depending on how you interpret them and we are not very well equipped to interpret them. It would have been more straightforward for them to simply say no, but they didn't opt to do that as if there is some way for PMCs to acceptably take AI generated contributions. Ariel On Mon, Jun 2, 2025, at 5:03 PM, David Capwell wrote: >> fine tuning encourage not reproducing things verbatimI think not producing >> copyrighted output from your training data is a technically feasible >> achievement for these vendors so I have a moderate level of trust they will >> succeed at it if they say they do it. > > Some team members and I discussed this in the context of my documentation > patch (which utilized Claude during composition). I conducted an experiment > to pose high-level Cassandra-related questions to a model without additional > context, while adjusting the temperature parameter (tested at 0.2, 0.5, and > 0.8). The results revealed that each test generated content copied verbatim > from a specific non-Apache (and non-DSE) website. I did not verify whether > this content was copyrighted, though it was easily identifiable through a > simple Google search. This occurred as a single sentence within the generated > document, and as I am not a legal expert, I cannot determine whether this > constitutes a significant issue. > > The complexity increases when considering models trained on different > languages, which may translate content into English. In such cases, a Google > search would fail to detect the origin. Is this still considered plagiarism? > Does it violate copyright laws? I am uncertain. > > Similar challenges arise with code generation. For instance, if a model is > trained on a GPL-licensed Python library that implements a novel data > structure, and the model subsequently rewrites this structure in Java, a > Google search is unlikely to identify the source. > > Personally, I do not assume these models will avoid producing copyrighted > material. This doesn’t mean I am against AI at all, but rather reflects my > belief that the requirements set by Apache are not easily “provable” in such > scenarios. > > >> My personal opinion is that we should at least consider allow listing a few >> specific sources (any vendor that scans output for infringement) and add >> that to the PR template and in other locations (readme, web site). Bonus >> points if we can set up code scanning (useful for non-AI contributions!). > > My perspective, after trying to see what AI can do is the following: > > Strengths > * Generating a preliminary draft of a document and assisting with iterative > revisions > * Documenting individual methods > * Generation of “simple” methods and scripts, provided the underlying > libraries are well-documented in public repositories > * Managing repetitive or procedural tasks, such as “migrating from X to Y” or > “converting serializations to the X interface” > > Limitations > * Producing a fully functional document in a single attempt that meets merge > standards. When documenting Gens.java and Property.java, the output appeared > plausible but contained frequent inaccuracies. > * Addressing complex or ambiguous scenarios (“gossip”), though this challenge > is not unique to AI—Matt Byrd and I tested Claude for CASSANDRA-20659, where > it could identify relevant code but proposed solutions that risked corrupting > production clusters. > * Interpreting large-scale codebases. Beyond approximately 300 lines of > actual code (excluding formatting), performance degrades significantly, > leading to a marked decline in output quality. > > Note: When referring to AI/LLMs, I am not discussing interactions with a user > interface to execute specific tasks, but rather leveraging code agents like > Roo and Aider to provide contextual information to the LLM. > > Given these observations, it remains challenging to determine optimal > practices. In some contexts its very clear to tell that nothing was taking > from external work (e.g., “create a test using our BTree class that inserts a > row with a null column,” “analyze this function’s purpose”). However, for > substantial tasks, the situation becomes more complex. If the author employed > AI as a collaborative tool during “pair programming,” concerns are not really > that different than google searches (unless the work involves unique elements > like introducing new data structures or indexes). Conversely, if the author > “vibe coded” the entire patch, two primary concerns arise: does the author > have writes to the code and whether its quality aligns with requirements. > > > TL;DR - I am not against AI contributions, but strongly prefer its done as > “pair programing”. My experience with “vibe coding” makes me worry about the > quality of the code, and that the author is less likely to validate that the > code generated is safe to donate. > > This email was generated with the help of AI =) > > >> On May 30, 2025, at 3:00 PM, Ariel Weisberg <ar...@weisberg.ws> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> It looks like we haven't discussed this much and haven't settled on a policy >> for what kinds of AI generated contributions we accept and what vetting is >> required for them. >> >> https://www.apache.org/legal/generative-tooling.html#:~:text=Given%20the%20above,code%20scanning%20results. >> >> ``` >> Given the above, code generated in whole or in part using AI can be >> contributed if the contributor ensures that: >> >> 1. The terms and conditions of the generative AI tool do not place any >> restrictions on use of the output that would be inconsistent with the Open >> Source Definition. >> 2. At least one of the following conditions is met: >> 2.1 The output is not copyrightable subject matter (and would not be even >> if produced by a human). >> 2.2 No third party materials are included in the output. >> 2.3 Any third party materials that are included in the output are being >> used with permission (e.g., under a compatible open-source license) of the >> third party copyright holders and in compliance with the applicable license >> terms. >> 3. A contributor obtains reasonable certainty that conditions 2.2 or 2.3 are >> met if the AI tool itself provides sufficient information about output that >> may be similar to training data, or from code scanning results. >> ``` >> >> There is a lot to unpack there, but it seems like any one of 2 needs to be >> met, and 3 describes how 2.2 and 2.3 can be satisfied. >> >> 2.1 is tricky as we are not copyright lawyers, and 2.2 and 2.3 is a pretty >> high bar in that it's hard to know if you have met it. Do we have anyone in >> the community running any code scanning tools already? >> >> Here is the JIRA for addition of the generative AI policy: >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-631 >> Legal mailing list discussion of the policy: >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/vw3jf4726yrhovg39mcz1y89mx8j4t8s >> Legal mailing list discussion of compliant tools: >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/nzyl311q53xhpq99grf6l1h076lgzybr >> Legal mailing list discussion about how Open AI terms are not Apache >> compatible: https://lists.apache.org/thread/lcvxnpf39v22lc3f9t5fo07p19237d16 >> Hadoop mailing list message hinting that they accept contributions but ask >> which tool: https://lists.apache.org/thread/bgs8x1f9ovrjmhg6b450bz8bt7o43yxj >> Spark mailing list message where they have given up on stopping people: >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/h6621sxfxcnnpsoyr31x65z207kk80fr >> >> I didn't see other projects discussing and deciding how to handle these >> contributions, but I also didn't check that many of them only Hadoop, Spark, >> Druid, Pulsar. I also can't see their PMC mailing list. >> >> I asked O3 to deep research what is done to avoid producing copyrighted >> code: https://chatgpt.com/share/683a2983-dd9c-8009-9a66-425012af840d >> >> To summarize training deduplicates training so the model is less likely to >> spit reproduce it verbatim, prompts and fine tuning encourage not >> reproducing things verbatim, the inference is biased to not pick the best >> option but some neighboring one encouraging originality, and in some >> instances the output is checked to make sure it doesn't match the training >> data. So to some extent 2.2 is being done to different degrees depending on >> what product you are using. >> >> It's worth noting that scanning the output can be probabilistic in the case >> of say Anthropic and they still recommend code scanning. >> >> Quite notably Anthropic for its enterprise users indemnifies them against >> copyright claims. It's not perfect, but it does mean they have an incentive >> to make sure there are fewer copyright claims. We could choose to be picky >> and only accept specific sources of LLM generated code based on perceived >> safety. >> >> I think not producing copyrighted output from your training data is a >> technically feasible achievement for these vendors so I have a moderate >> level of trust they will succeed at it if they say they do it. >> >> I could send a message to the legal list asking for clarification and a set >> of tools, but based on Roman's communication >> (https://lists.apache.org/thread/f6k93xx67pc33o0yhm24j3dpq0323gyd) I think >> this is kind of what we get. It's on us to ensure the contributions are >> kosher either by code scanning or accepting that the LLM vendors are doing a >> good job at avoiding copyrighted output. >> >> My personal opinion is that we should at least consider allow listing a few >> specific sources (any vendor that scans output for infringement) and add >> that to the PR template and in other locations (readme, web site). Bonus >> points if we can set up code scanning (useful for non-AI contributions!). >> >> Regards, >> Ariel
