I don’t want to put words into Jonathan’s mouth, but my guess is that he’s
trying
to strike a balance between Apache Cassandra’s almost exclusive use of JIRA and
like nil conversation on the dev@ list, with an incremental way to *get there*
in terms of moving the project to actually use the dev list for discussion.
This isn’t an effort to kill JIRA. JIRA is fine as a *tool*. But, it is by no
means the
ground truth for the project. The ground truth is, always has been, and will
continue in the future to be, the mailing list. Project decisions are made on
the mailing list.
Normally this is an easy concept for new projects to grok as they come through
the Incubator, and as they become Apache projects. Sometimes, projects need
to be instructed that this is the case. We have seen it many times before.
However,
there seems to be a fundamental disconnect here in Apache Cassandra between
the project being mentored in the Apache way, versus “the way you have been
doing it for so long”. Just because that’s the way it’s been going on for so
long,
doesn’t mean it’s the correct way here at the ASF.
On 8/15/16, 11:05 AM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
So then what was the point of Ellis’s proposal, and this discussion, if
there was never a choice in the matter in the first place?
On 8/15/16, 2:03 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
I’m sorry but you are massively confused if you believe that the ASF
mailing lists
aren’t the source of truth. They are. That’s not optional. If you are
an ASF project,
mailing lists are the source of truth. Period.
On 8/15/16, 11:01 AM, "Michael Kjellman" <mkjell...@internalcircle.com>
wrote:
I'm a big fan of mailing lists, but google makes issues very
findable for new people to the project as JIRA gets indexed. They won't be able
to find the same thing on an email they didn't get -- because they weren't in
the project in the first place.
Mailing lists are good for broad discussion or bringing specific
issues to the attention of the broader community. It should never be the source
of truth.
best,
kjellman
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 15, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Chris Mattmann
<mattm...@apache.org<mailto:mattm...@apache.org>> wrote:
Realize it’s not just about committers and PMC members that are
*already*
on the PMC or that are developing the project. It’s about how to
engage the
*entire* community including those that are not yet on the
committer or
PMC roster. That is the future (and current) lifeblood of the
project. The mailing
list aren’t just an unfortunate necessity of being an Apache
project. They *are*
the lifeblood of the Apache project.
On 8/15/16, 10:44 AM, "Brandon Williams"
<dri...@gmail.com<mailto:dri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I too, use this method quite a bit, almost every single day.
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Yuki Morishita
<mor.y...@gmail.com<mailto:mor.y...@gmail.com>> wrote:
As an active committer, the most important thing for me is to be
able
to *look up* design discussion and decision easily later.
I often look up the git history or CHANGES.txt for changes that I'm
interested in, then look up JIRA by following JIRA ticket number
written to the comment or text.
If we move to dev mailing list, I would request to post permalink to
that thread posted to JIRA, which I think is just one extra step
that
isn't necessary if we simply use JIRA.
So, I'm +1 to just post JIRA link to dev list.
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Chris Mattmann
<mattm...@apache.org<mailto:mattm...@apache.org>>
wrote:
This is a good outward flow of info to the dev list. However, there
needs to be
inward flow too – having the convo on the dev list will be a good
start
to that.
I hope to see more inclusivity here.
On 8/15/16, 10:26 AM, "Aleksey Yeschenko"
<alek...@apache.org<mailto:alek...@apache.org>> wrote:
Well, if you read carefully what Jeremiah and I have just
proposed,
it wouldn’t be an issue.
The notable major changes would start off on dev@ (think, a
summary, a link to the JIRA, and maybe an attached spec doc).
No need to follow the JIRA feed. Watch dev@ for those
announcements
and start watching the invidual JIRA tickets if interested.
This creates the least amount of noise: you miss nothing
important,
and at the same time you won’t be receiving mail from
dev@ for each individual comment - including those on proposals
you
don’t care about.
We aren’t doing it currently, but we could, and probably should.
--
AY
On 15 August 2016 at 18:22:36, Chris Mattmann
(mattm...@apache.org<mailto:mattm...@apache.org>)
wrote:
Discussion belongs on the dev list. Putting discussion in JIRA,
is
fine, but realize,
there is a lot of noise in that signal and people may or may not
be
watching
the JIRA list. In fact, I don’t see JIRA sent to the dev list at
all
so you are basically
forking the conversation to a high noise list by putting it all
in
JIRA.
On 8/15/16, 10:11 AM, "Aleksey Yeschenko"
<alek...@apache.org<mailto:alek...@apache.org>>
wrote:
I too feel like it would be sufficient to announce those major
JIRAs
on the dev@ list, but keep all discussion itself to JIRA, where it
belongs.
You don’t need to follow every ticket this way, just subscribe to
dev@ and then start watching the select major JIRAs you care about.
--
AY
On 15 August 2016 at 18:08:20, Jeremiah D Jordan (
jeremiah.jor...@gmail.com<mailto:jeremiah.jor...@gmail.com>) wrote:
I like keeping things in JIRA because then everything is in one
place, and it is easy to refer someone to it in the future.
But I agree that JIRA tickets with a bunch of design discussion
and
POC’s and such in them can get pretty long and convoluted.
I don’t really like the idea of moving all of that discussion to
email which makes it has harder to point someone to it. Maybe a
better idea
would be to have a “design/POC” JIRA and an “implementation” JIRA.
That way
we could still keep things in JIRA, but the final decision would be
kept
“clean”.
Though it would be nice if people would send an email to the dev
list when proposing “design” JIRA’s, as not everyone has time to
follow
every JIRA ever made to see that a new design JIRA was created that
they
might be interested in participating on.
My 2c.
-Jeremiah
On Aug 15, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Jonathan Ellis
<jbel...@gmail.com<mailto:jbel...@gmail.com>>
wrote:
A long time ago, I was a proponent of keeping most development
discussions
on Jira, where tickets can be self contained and the threadless
nature
helps keep discussions from getting sidetracked.
But Cassandra was a lot smaller then, and as we've grown it has
become
necessary to separate out the signal (discussions of new features
and major
changes) from the noise of routine bug reports.
I propose that we take advantage of the dev list to perform that
separation. Major new features and architectural improvements
should be
discussed first here, then when consensus on design is achieved,
moved to
Jira for implementation and review.
I think this will also help with the problem when the initial idea
proves
to be unworkable and gets revised substantially later after much
discussion. It can be difficult to figure out what the conclusion
was, as
review comments start to pile up afterwards. Having that
discussion on the
list, and summarizing on Jira, would mitigate this.
--
Jonathan Ellis
Project Chair, Apache Cassandra
co-founder, http://www.datastax.com
@spyced
--
Yuki Morishita
t:yukim (http://twitter.com/yukim)
