Camaleón <noela...@gmail.com> writes: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:28:18 +0200, lee wrote: > >> Camaleón <noela...@gmail.com> writes: >>> >>> In my planet, yes. Everybody I know uses Windows (starting from my >>> mother and ending with my company partners). >> >> That someone uses it doesn't mean that they are able to fix problems. > > The simply usage (by pure definition) confers the user some degree of > expertise and while it may not generate "Windows geniuses" it will allow > at least some basic control about how an operating system works.
Windoze is designed to take away the users control of everything as much as possible. Most people using it don't care about how things work or anything related to that. If they did, they wouldn't want to have windoze on their computers ... They just want the software running they think they need, and when you even change the look of an icon they are in major trouble because they don't know anymore what button to press. That's "usage", they act like robots programmed to press the right buttons at the right time. They are not able to fix any problems. If it gets too bad, they re-install and start over from scratch. >>> Today, most of the user-friendly Linux distributions you can find out >>> there (Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, Debian...) are as easier to install >>> and deal with as can be Windows or MacOS in the event they all have to >>> be installed from scratch. >> >> My experiences with that are very different. > > In what way? It can be ridiculously difficult to install Debian. Last time I did, it took a whole day and a day before that to make preparations intended to enable me to install it without having internet access and without having a working computer at hand. Before that, it took a few days to find out what I would need to do, i. e. how to make sure that the wireless card hopefully works. The wireless card turned out to be no problem because I was prepared --- and it might not have worked at all, there was no way to tell in advance. What didn't work was the very simple thing of making a RAID-1 from two whole disks and install onto the RAID-1. I tried a number of different things and nothing worked. Finally I gave up and resorted to having a partition not on the RAID-1. There were lots of other little details I don't remember. For the clueless user, it would have been impossible to install it. I've seen broken Debian installers that couldn't find packages. I've had installer CDs that couldn't be read for some reason, so I had to drive an hour to the place I worked at to make a new ones and drive an hour back. I've seen not totally clueless windoze users sitting with me in front of their computer, looking at the Debian installer and asking me "How do you know which keys to press?". It's a totally valid question. I just know which keys to press, the clueless user doesn't. How are they supposed to know? >> It's the other way round. People using windoze don't know how to fix >> problems, they live with them. > > It will depend on the problem because some problems cannot be avoided: > you solve it or you're completely hosed because your system is not able > to start :-) Just re-install and start from scratch, that's what everyone does. That you have to do that all the time is one of the reasons why I'm not using it. >> Then look around for solutions to problems you can have with Linux, and >> you will find lots of answers and even solutions. > > And more problems, unsupported hardware, outdated applications... More problems? I don't know about that. You can even get bugs fixed the next day on a weekend when you report one. What commercial software has support that good? You have the source code, too, so you can even fix them yourself. Unsupported hardware, yes, you have to be picky about what you buy --- which isn't bad because you avoid crappy hardware which is too likely to give you problems to be worth it. Outdated applications? Yes, some packages in Debian are rather old. So I got emacs and fvwm and compiled them myself; how more recent can you get? >> It's not about finding helpful people. It's what people have been made >> to believe. > > I don't think so. Windows and Linux are both having their own pros and > cons, and of course, both do have problems of different nature but > problems you have to solve in the end. There are no trouble-free OSes. People believe that they can solve problems they have with windoze and don't believe they can solve problems they have with Linux, and they believe they don't have problems when they have a Mac. >>>> There isn't anyone who could solve a problem they might have with >>>> windoze. Ask even an MSCE, and the only thing they say is "I don't >>>> know". >>> >>> I'm a long time Windows user and there was only one time when I >>> contacted MS official support which finally did not solve my issue and >>> I had to figure out by myself. >> >> I've made the same experience, except that I don't use windoze unless I >> get payed for it. Nobody solves problems with windoze. > > Maybe is that you haven't searched enough. Indeed there are many forums, > mailing lists and helpful people out there that will try to fix your > issues (have you ever heard about Microsoft MVP?) I searched long enough. MVP? Maybe they didn't have that when I was looking. It still doesn't mean that problems can be fixed. >>> Microsoft users are one of their most valuable assets, meaning that you >>> don't need to contact Microsoft in order to get a problem solved, the >>> web is plenty of plain users that do their work :-) >> >> No it's not, simply because the users are clueless. > > The average joe user has developed some skills on Windows. Some have found out how to live with the problems, yes. I don't call workarounds or living with the problems a solution to the problems. >>>> Did you read what I wrote? >>> >>> Yes, and I found it funny because most people don't even know that >>> konqueror is a piece of software... >> >> That's why I said they might ask what konqueror is. What makes you think >> that I would expect they know what it is? > > Because you linked konqueror with a system reboot. ? >> Most people don't even know the most basic things. Yet it is expected of >> them to be able to use a computer, so people have assumed an attitude >> that makes them experts, no matter how clueless they are. They try to go >> what appears to them as the way of least resistance and aren't aware of >> the disadvantages. > > Clueless people is not what I'm afraid of. Clueless people who want to > remain at their ignorant state perpetually and expect the others solves > their problems is what makes me shiver :-) The clueless people who think they aren't clueless are far worse. Windoze (and Mac) users pay a lot of money for their software (and way too much for their hardware). They can expect that they don't need to solve problems. They can also expect that they can use their computers intuitively because that's what they are being promised. Since everyone can do that, everyone's an expert. -- Debian testing amd64 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k3w0yubs....@yun.yagibdah.de
