-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11 May 2011 15:42, Jamie Thompson <debian-user@jamie- thompson.co.uk> wrote: > On 2011-05-11 4:23 PM, Mathieu Malaterre wrote: >> On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 5:17 PM, jeremy jozwik <jerjoz.for...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 7:58 AM, Curt Howland <howl...@priss.com> wrote: >>>> So Skype has been bought by Microsoft. >>>> >>>> I expect the Linux version of Skype to be abolished in short order. Oh >>>> well, thus the fate of proprietary software. I'm sure St. Ignucious is >>>> shaking his head with the inevitability of it all. >>>> >>>> This aught to re-ignite the effort to develop the alternatives. >>>> >>>> And if it doesn't, that will say more than any success could. >>>> >>>> Curt-
Well, if you mean alternative ways to call Skype users without actually running Skype, there are rumors the the Chinese already succeeded in reverse engineering it. http://www.asteriskvoipnews.com/skype/chinese_clone_reverse_engineer s_skype_protocol.html If you mean alternative internet-based phones... well, there's already a long list. >>>> -- >>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org >>>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org >>>> Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi==+gKf0ju2rn60umie5+Uvi2m=y...@mail.gma il.com >>> >>> better download that latest linux version now. >>> >>> annoying, but it does work. >> >> Moving on to google talk... >> > > Wish I could get more to do so... > > The problem with social software is that you need to support the > platforms non-technical users are using. That inevitably means Windows > and Macs. > > Problem is, there are no Windows clients AFAIK with decent Jingle video > support. Google, for some crazy reason, decided to put resources into > making a plugin for GMail rather than adding it to their GTalk client > software. Pidgin doesn't have video on Windows, and I've not found a > decent SIP client yet, let alone a "normal" user with a SIP account to > call them with. > > In an ideal world, I'd like to see ubiquitous Jingle support, and > properly maintained XMPP transports for each proprietary network, with > Jingle support added to those if possible. A ubiquitous free solution > for NAT traversal would be nice too, so you get the same "just works > experience" that Skype offers. > > - Jamie I prefer SIP precisely because it's intercompatible with what (nearly) everyone uses. The standard isn't Skype. The standard is PTSN. It has been for a long time, and it probably will be for a long time to come. If I'm tight on money, and I can only afford phone or internet, but not both, I'm going to pick phone. Why? Aside from usually being cheaper, it's easier to live without home internet than without home phone (or cell phone, but home phone is usually cheaper and more reliable). More people expect to be able to contact me that way. A lot of my friends don't have home computers or home internet, and very few lack a phone of some sort, plus PTSN is the standard real-time distance communications method. For occasional internet to contact people who absolutely insist on using e-mail instead, I can go to the library. Now, I could try to use an internet phone, but then (with some exceptions) you have to leave your computer on all the time you want to be reachable, miss calls when you have it off, the phone doesn't work during power outages (which can be a big thing), runs up the electric bill -- and that's all assuming the connection between your client and the provider is stable even when your computer is up and running, which it often isn't. (Oh, and I might be able to get a few free hours of dial-up every month, enough to check e-mail regularly, although a lot of the free dial-up programs are Windows-only, unfortunately.) So, given the choice between the two, I, and most people, would pick phone. And that's what I normally do, but as these aren't normal times, and I couldn't actually afford either, were it not for the fact that I'm getting internet for free right now (well, using someone else's, with permission of course). But most people still use phone. With Skype, I would have to pay for Skype-In and Skype-Out to interact with them, which defeats the point of not having to pay for phone service. Two choices (that I know of) left: Google Voice and SIP. Google Voice gives me a free number, and free calls out to the U.S. and Canada, which is great. The minority of people who do not use PTSN, for whatever reason, can call directly via Google Talk. And look! GtalktoVOIP, which basically makes Google Voice compatible with most VOIP systems besides Skype, which is apparently to proprietary to be easily supported. Two problems with Google Voice, one minor and one major. Firstly, to make and receive calls over the internet, I have to have Gmail open, in full JavaScript mode, which is a pain on this old computer. Secondly, it's x86/amd64 only, which means it's not just a pain, it's impossible, since this computer is a powerpc. (And don't get me started on emulators.) Tried pidgin: it crashed when I tried to pick up a call. So that leaves SIP. With a service provider like Sipgate, I get a free number and incoming calls. So, now my friends don't have to complain that they can only leave voicemails and I never pick up. But I'd have to pay for outgoing calls. But look, it's compatible with Google Voice. I can set Google Voice to forward to Sipgate's PTSN number. (Unfortunately, Google Voice does not appear capable of forwarding on the SIP side.) When I want to make a call, I can go to the Google Voice webpage, and tell it to call my Sipgate PTSN number and connect it to the person I want to call. Rather inefficient, but it works. So, using my SIP + Google Voice combo: * I am compatible with normal PTSN phone users, incoming and outgoing. * I am of course compatible with SIP users, not that there are that many of them. * Via GtalktoVOIP, I am intercompatible with Google Talk, Yahoo Voice, and MSN Voice users. That basically covers all the major bases except Skype. Now, I can understand not wanting to pay for phone and using a free as in beer internet solution instead. At the moment, I'm in that position myself. But really, Skype users are off in their own world. Short of paying for Skype-in and Skype-out, nothing else can interact with it, with the possible exception of some rumors about reverse engineering in China. There are other options people could choose for free as in beer VOIP that would allow them to talk to other people using different programs. If they want to be cliqueish and refuse to talk to non-Skype users, that's their problem. (Alternatively, if they want to pay for Skype-in and Skype-out, that's their dime.) Now, if only I could find a SIP client that works on Debian and OpenBSD (bonus points for Mac OS X Tiger/powerpc too) *and* is robust enough to deal with my poor internet connection, which sometimes has 50% packet loss, then it might not only work, it might work reliably. I tried Ekiga, but it doesn't even notify me when Sipgate no longer recognizes me as logged in, presumably because the connection dropped. Ekiga thinks I'm still logged in. Funny thing, I'm not sure, but I think a call which is already in progress continues to work even when Sipgate no longer thinks the softphone is logged in. On 12 May 2011 14:04, Jamie Thompson <debian-user@jamie- thompson.co.uk> wrote: > On 2011-05-11 5:05 PM, Γαβριήλ Τασιόπουλος wrote: >>> The problem with social software is that you need to support the >>> platforms non-technical users are using. That inevitably means Windows >>> and Macs. >> >> I use a mac and I'd like to think I'm a "technical user". Isolating >> Linux users from the rest of the computer users as more technical and >> specialized is one of the reasons clients for mainstream services are >> not developed for linux. > > Perhaps, but the fact is I installed Debian on my parents PC when their > old XP install died (with install discs and keys nowhere to be found), > showed them how to use it, and what happened? My old man went out and > bought a laptop so he could use XP again. I failed with him. My mother > is fine with Linux though. > > You can't deny that when it comes to home users, the majority of Linux > users are technical users, and the majority of Windows and Mac users are > not. There are always exceptions; some people's relatives like and can > deal with Linux (great!), and likewise, some techies like Macs, or > Windows. But the majority of Mac and Windows users are plain old > peck-typing email, web, and basic document editing users. So your father bought a new laptop to use XP again. If he really wanted to use XP again, it would've been sufficient for him to simply buy a new install disc and license, but in any case, he was obviously sufficiently financially well off to afford it. What about the people who aren't financially well off enough to afford it? You know, blue collar workers, low level clerks, agricultural workers, unemployed people, people dealing with insane medical bills (because insurance sucks, and will pay for you to see the doctor an excessive number of times to verify that you have the flu and can't go to work that day, but is not interested in the important stuff, like making sure you have an arm an a leg, life- saving organ transplants, etc.), and so on and so forth. (Also, people who are financially well off, but would rather buy a vacation than a new computer.) A lot of computer recyclers don't recycle computers at all, they just ship them overseas to China, where they cause all sorts of environmental and health problems. A lot of those computers still work, even if they can't run all the latest and greatest software. Imagine if instead of being given to some conman pretending to recycle computers, they were given to a charity that serves poor people, thus providing used computers to the computerless. Because it's a shame, but a number of minimum wage jobs, or jobs that pay little more than minimum wage, still require an online application, which can really slow down the job search (or eliminate that employer as an option) if you have no home internet and no car and have to walk/bus to the library just to apply for a job whose employer is anti-paper. And other useful things. Some disabled people can't even make it to the library. Sure, a used computer might not run the latest bloated 3D games, the latest version of Microsoft Office, or the latest version of Photoshop, but spruced up with Linux, it can be used for basic web browsing, digital paperwork, e-mail, and a wide variety of other things. So, the next time you have a used computer which is still functional but no one uses or wants to use anymore, consider donating it to a computerless person instead of taking it to a dubious recycler or chucking it into the trash. (In fact, in many cases, you could probably sell it. If it's a really old computer, it might even be a collectors item by now.) On 11 May 2011 16:44, Aaron Toponce <aaron.topo...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 09:37:49AM -0700, cac...@quantum-sci.com wrote: >> On Wednesday 11 May, 2011 08:59:24 Aaron Toponce wrote: >> > First, you're speculating. You have nothing to base your guess on. >> > Microsoft may not have been the most "Linux-friendly" company in the world, >> > but that doesn't mean that they are going to cut the GNU/Linux client of >> > Skype. >> > >> > Second, http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/05/ballmer-skype- announcement/. >> > Quote: >> > >> > Third, Skype is a proprietary client that uses a proprietary protocol. If >> > you're that concerned about it, then you'll run it on a supported platform, >> > even if it means the platform itself is proprietary, such as Microsoft >> > Windows. >> >> LOL, what makes you think that wagging your finger at someone, teaches them anything, or encourages respect for you? > > Wagging my finger? What wagging? I put a quick stop to the spreading of > FUD, gave support to back it up, and then explained that GNU/Linux users > that are hell-bent on using Skype will use it elsewhere, should GNU/Linux > support get dropped. > > I'm failing to see the "finger wagging". It's a mailing list, not the New York Times. It's his opinion. He's allowed to speculate. People do that in conversation. He didn't even have to write "I expect". It's a convention of the English language. You don't have to put in qualifiers like "I think" or "I expect" or "maybe" every single time you are talking about something that is an opinion or guess rather than solid fact. Otherwise, our speech would be littered with such qualifiers whenever we weren't talking mathematics. Now, it's still a good idea to put such qualifiers in there sometimes for legal reasons and/or to stress that someone should not go off and make an important decisions based on your opinion or guess, but really, we're talking about software, not cancer treatments. You don't have to agree with him, but you're both speculating (in fact, most of us are): pointing out that he is doing so and pretending like you're all perfectly logical is just ad hominem. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Charset: UTF8 Version: Hush 3.0 Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify wsBcBAEBAgAGBQJN1JWrAAoJEKlMTST7VF+oDEwH/RXuU+I/qzuqVXWAv8APbBw/+0V/ uxqmTVElQqv7dsK/AXV4FTe3iZGn1uK33tsgSx5F3s1KwY/HTLntxQbjNFY+cb/WgFjg WhtGGHnITK4GmrYKVt/naB/DFAazBCm5L3Zf8Moh6HsG3IkZ7ZwJMMWkP31ZKJKNBZDW 0ls9p5e1A55HitV/FxqhmEm4MUPiHTUZKT7i5HF6EdsLmxnSEG1AiNIdegS2NlNEV3aS 0LIfrjOeH+FSgbfTT1GQ5mdLIVrE81HxKG/ssdzxtMvm63Cr8NqAf9TplTQAjRmU7fnI U0J197Ki8x6dHZSRerennnL4V48Vo1TaiC/TOAcX4qY= =9ITC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110519035939.ab23414d...@smtp.hushmail.com
