2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan <h...@halblog.com>: > > On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote: > >> 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules <sou...@gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about >>>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a >>>> debian user. >>> >>> Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice, >>> but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will >>> not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're >>> speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman. >>> Don't waste people's time. Ever. >> >> yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good >> advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good >> advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and >> trying to figure out the best way. > > No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you that > you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, "But you're > wrong and I'm right." I give you much respect, but you give me laughing, I will not respect you anymore, no thanks, good bye!
> >>> >>> You talk about how different languages are just "different ways to do >>> the same thing." Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in >>> English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native >>> Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just "different ways to >>> say the same thing?" If you don't understand them both well, you >>> might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language >>> versus the other. "飄飄何所似， 天地一沙鷗" -- in English, is it 'just the same >>> thing?' It's not that Chinese is just "better," there are plenty of >>> things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the >>> same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you >>> think "none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to >>> C/C++" -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without >>> lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog >>> in a well, saying "look how small the sky is!" >> >> A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages. >> Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the >> official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need >> an official programming language, then you are saying "we do not need >> English to be the world official language", I believe no one will >> agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many >> languages, then you are saying "everyone should learn English, >> Chinese, French....", oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I >> guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese >> have to learn English. > > Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every level. In > this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it beyond any boundary > of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into it more, but why? You'll > just say, "But I'm right and you're not." > >> I value every good concept in every language, > > No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've been > told dozens of times. > >> but please add that good >> concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; > > Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do nothing -- > except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how taxes work in your > country). You make it sound like a chore to learn a new language. For a > true programmer it isn't. Learning a new language, for a real and true > programmer, is and adventure. It's a chance to approach all problems from > yet another perspective. I learned most languages in a few hours or days. > When I first started looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it, > working with other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're > being forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field. > > But after reading that line, I wonder.... > > Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks like > you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't have to learn > languages you don't want to learn. > > I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth. > >> or, >> I can reference another language so that I can improve my language, >> but please do not force me to use a new one. > > Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, don't > learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, don't be > surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! Honestly, that you > can even talk about being forced to learn a language, that you even have > that as a concept in your brain, says even more about you. It tells us you > don't want to learn something new. It tells us you don't want to explore. > It tells us you see programming more as a chore than an art or challenge. > It also says that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a > programmer. > >> The way computers working >> is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept >> in one language to another. > > Do you have any clue, when you make a statement like that, just how much it > shows everyone that you know almost nothing about programming? Seriously, > and not as a slam against you, you keep making statements like that and each > one just tells us even more about how little you know and how little you're > willing to learn. You're not just ignorant, you simply refuse to learn. > >> The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot >> cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn >> and use it from the start to end. > > That is one of the stupidest comments I've heard anyone say or write in at > least a year -- and I know stupid. I lived through the 2009 U.S. > Presidential elections (which are included in that one year). Seriously, > it's just plain ignorant and stupid. > > I've written bash scripts to work with programs in other languages. Look at > how Perl uses C and C++ libraries and they work together. I've written > programs in Perl that communicate with programs in Java with no trouble. > > You make it sound like it's such a barrier to have different languages, but > it's not. > > This statement is as stupid as saying, "We should all learn to play the same > musical instrument so we can all read notes on the same staff and in the > same notation and play in the same range." Honestly, I don't know whether > you're now spinning your wheels and making up things to try to justify your > position or not, but you've crossed a line somewhere today and gone from > making statements that let you sound somewhat intelligent but inexperienced > to making statements that make you sound like you have just enough > intelligence to learn simple programming tasks, but not enough to see how > much you don't know. > >>> I'm perhaps a "junior programmer" myself. I can and have used C and >>> Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript >>> and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH >>> different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized >>> that different languages do different things much more easily than >>> others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done. >> >> but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because >> different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt, >> C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages. >> It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way! > > Odd. It's painful for you, other programmers don't have an issue with it. > Is it possible programming is not a wise career path for you? Maybe you > should try something different. > >>> Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format >>> converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to >>> parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on >>> doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It >>> took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or >>> maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but >>> I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look >>> back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior >>> ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers? >>> What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common >>> tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's >>> great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time >>> those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to SAVE >>> time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race >>> sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn >>> perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution >>> in C. >> >> I want to integrate perl into C/C++. > > Remember what I said above? This gets even more outlandish than your other > statements -- and see what I said about how they make you look as you make > each new one. > >>> You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be >>> able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like." >>> An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you >>> going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the >>> functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with >>> the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or >>> memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting >>> problem you can think of solving with computers? >> >> Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many >> people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one >> programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free >> software world. > > Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent and > experience. > >>> >>> You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would >>> accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people >>> over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is >>> unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas >>> are at least worth considering. >> >> no, I don't consider the number of people and the length of time a >> situation exists, I just consider whether it's the right way to do >> things. > > And it's not, but your ego is so strong and your need to appear and feel > right is so strong that you are incapable of backing down and realizing when > you've goofed or when you don't understand something. > >> thank you for the advice! > > Why? You don't want it, you won't listen. You just tell all of us we're > wrong and you're right, yet you're the one without a job, you're the one > willing to piss off your bosses in programming jobs. > > > Hal > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.orgwith a subject > of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > > -- Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks) Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl 初禪言語寂滅，二禪覺觀寂滅，三禪喜心寂滅，四禪出入息寂滅....于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫，是為無上禪。 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
