On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 06:25:23PM -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> On Sunday 12 October 2008, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > Hal Vaughan wrote:
> > > My original point is that I don't file bug reports with
> > > FOSS because I've had some indifferent and even hostile replies.
> > > As I've said, there are reasons that I usually file bug reports
> > > under a legal alias and why I used to be on mailing lists using the
> > > same aka. It's a long story, but it's not that I'm up to anything
> > > shady. Overall, I used to file bug reports, back when I first
> > > started working with FOSS, sometime in the late 1990s, but gave up
> > > on it for the reasons I mentioned. That this particular one is
> > > dated 2006 tells me it's one I filed when I had already given up,
> > > for the most part, on filing them.
> >
> > Well, that pretty much summarizes the fact that you do not want to
> > file bugs, and the reasons why. I (and other people, judging by the
> > thread) think you should, but it is your right not to file any bugs
> > if you don't feel inclined to do that by whatever reasons you have.
> >
> > That being explained, what exactly do you want to achieve with this
> > thread?
>
> I made the statement, as you summarized in your first paragraph. Since
> then people have said, "But this is an example that disproves what you
> say," or something similar. Since then I've been responding to back up
> my point.
>
> Notice that the response in the original report strayed far from the
> original issue. My primary concern was never even addressed in the
> responses, yet a lot of other stuff was. I gave up because I felt my
> point was just not being heard and after 2 tries, it was clear to me
> that we were stuck in a loop and my original point was not going to be
> heard, no matter what I said or did.
>
> So I made a point here. Some people have agreed. Not everyone, which
> is to be expected, but the fact that some do shows that this has
> happened often enough that there are people who have experienced it
> multiple times and have given up on filing bug reports (on Debian
> and/or other projects), even though devs ask for them. This is a
> problem that creates problems for FOSS devs, so I pointed it out.
>
> And, just like in the original bug report, we hit an endless loop. I've
> responded over and over to try to break out of that loop, to try to
> make the point: From one side, the one asking for bug reports, it's not
> a problem. From the other side, it is.
>
> Honestly, I am TRYING TO HELP! I am saying, "There's a problem," and
> some people have said, "You have a valid point," but a lot of people,
> especially ones on the "other side" of the issue, are so focused on
> defending themselves or a fellow DD that they're talking about
> everything but my original point or the original point in the bug
> report.
>
> It's the old debate trick: I can't win with the topic in question, but I
> can justify what I say and win if I change the issue to one I want to
> discuss. That way I can ignore the problem or issue and feel justified
> that I was right all along.
>
> Okay, I've described what I see going on.
>
> So what am I trying to do? As I said, I'm trying to help. I'm trying
> to say, "From your point of view, your justified, but there's another
> point of view you don't see and from that point of view, there is a
> problem. You can't see it from there, so let me show you." I'm hoping
> it will make enough people think so in the future there won't be
> someone like me who files bug reports, finds that in every one the
> responder was either indifferent or hostile (I'm not saying Christian
> was hostile, I would not use that word at all), and gives up.
>
> I'm hoping enough devs will think about this and say, "Okay, I think
> he's wrong, but on the off chance that he may be right, I'll be sure
> and deal with future bug reports with attention to what the reporter is
> trying to accomplish and focus on solving THAT problem, not just on
> closing it out as quickly as possible."
>
> That may or may not happen, but I do think that this thread has at least
> given the issue more visibility and in that way I've done something
> that could help and as long as I feel people are trying to justify
> responses instead of focusing on the fact that this is an issue to
> consider, I'll keep dealing with their points because I feel strongly
> about this.
You have raised some interesting points. If you consider the BTS as a
help desk, then I think you will be sorely disappointed.
It seems that to file a bug report the submitter first has to research
the problem, try and resolve it, and if possible, to provide a patch.
I, too, am interested in other peoples views on this.
--
Chris.
======
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Sir Stephen Henry Roberts
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