On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartm...@debian.org> wrote: > > >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <eko...@gmail.com> writes: > > Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater > <amaca...@einval.com> wrote: > >> > Eldon> <snip> > >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply, > >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about > >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor > >> announces she is trans. > >> > >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in > >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless > >> and with every good wish, as ever, > >> > >> Andy C. > >> > > Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project > Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who > Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it. > > Perhaps. > But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important. > > For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt > when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and > that ends up being controversial. > > Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month. > We talked about what that meant to Debian: > https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html > > That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to > Debian. > And it is directly and completely about inclusion. >
I had not seen that post before, and I don't see it referenced elsewhere in this thread. I think this thread started with a fundamental misunderstanding on the meaning/purpose of the logo. From that post, it sounds like it is not intended specifically as a pride logo, but a logo for diversity in general used by the diversity team. That actually changes a lot for me. Maybe it was discussed on another list which I do not follow. > And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts. > And discussing and arguing about it is draining. > > And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions. > And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that > Debian is making political statements that they disagree with. > > So perhaps this discussion needs to happen. > And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community. > > But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just > concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion. > Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved. > For me, these _are_ honest concerns -- and I would have the same concerns about using any debian logo that was for a specific group (it appears this one was not, I believe that was the misunderstanding that led to this thread) -- namely how do we fairly decide which groups should get their own logos on debian.org and on which days without becoming very political? I apologize if my message was dismissive or otherwise unsympathetic, it wasn't intended as such. The message I was replying to felt like an outright attack against anyone who had voiced concerns, and I did not feel the claims were accurate. > And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having > it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt. > > I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am > asking you to show compassion. > > --Sam -- Eldon Koyle On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman <hartm...@debian.org> wrote: > > >>>>> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle <eko...@gmail.com> writes: > > Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater > <amaca...@einval.com> wrote: > >> > Eldon> <snip> > >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply, > >> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about > >> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor > >> announces she is trans. > >> > >> Tina - welcome to a life of having to defend your every move in > >> every social and anti-social situation - but welcome regardless > >> and with every good wish, as ever, > >> > >> Andy C. > >> > > Eldon> It's unfair to conflate concerns about how the Debian project > Eldon> observed pridemonth with some kind of ill-will for those who > Eldon> celebrate (or are celebrated by?) it. > > Perhaps. > But acknowledging pain we cause in our community is important. > > For those of us in the LGBTQ+ community, I think it is likely to hurt > when we're trying to reaffirm that we're welcome in the project and > that ends up being controversial. > > Remember we didn't just blanket support Pride Month. > We talked about what that meant to Debian: > https://bits.debian.org/2019/06/diversity-and-inclusion.html > > That blog post is about what joining Pride celebrations means to > Debian. > And it is directly and completely about inclusion. > > And yeah, when that ends of being controversial it hurts. > And discussing and arguing about it is draining. > > And I'm sure that this is draining for people with different positions. > And I hear people's worry and frustration when they are concerned that > Debian is making political statements that they disagree with. > > So perhaps this discussion needs to happen. > And sometimes we need to experience pain as a community. > > But I ask you not to deny that pain. Do not pretend that it's "just > concerns," and that there is not a real cost to the discussion. > Have it if you need to, but have compassion for everyone involved. > > And yeah, having your coming out within the Debian community and having > it drop in the middle of this is damn well going to hurt. > > I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong by causing pain. But I am > asking you to show compassion. > > --Sam -- Eldon Koyle
