On Friday, January 04, 2019 10:55:51 AM Russ Allbery wrote: > Scott Kitterman <deb...@kitterman.com> writes: > > Nonsense unless you define being an adult as completely and fully > > understanding exactly what the hundreds of people around the world think > > is reasonable. > > Anyone who has held down a job in a typical workplace has already shown > that they can understand what's reasonable and adjust to a social > environment well enough to do just fine in Debian. (And yes, I realize > that's *also* a challenging environment for some folks, and in a lot of > cases we can be *more* welcoming than that, but I think it's being aware > of that baseline.) > > > I suspect we agree on more than we disagree in this area, but I don't > > think "My way or the highway" is the right answer beyond a certain point > > in a worldwide project like this. > > It's certainly not "my" way -- it's some sort of consensus emergent > standards among all of us, which changes in the complicated and intricate > ways of all human communities. But every community has standards of > behavior and social consequences, whether formal or informal, for > violating them. There exists no place on earth in which you can say > literally whatever you want with zero consequences, because humans are a > social species and we interact with each other and those communities > involve making judgments about who we include and don't. > > > Please accept that I am concerned that reasonable people who, none the > > less, do not fully accept a certain political orthodoxy are uncertain > > about where the lines are and find that chilling their willingness to > > participate in Debian beyond narrow strictly technical discussions. > > Yup, sometimes it's uncertain and uncomfortable. That's because > navigating social situations can be work. It can require effort. And > yes, we all make mistakes (for instance, I just made one in going for > pithy over fully explained, and made it seem like I was attacking you, for > which I sincerely apologize). And it's a process; you step on someone's > foot or put your foot in your mouth, and then you adjust, and pick > yourself up and dust yourself off and try again. > > The part that I'm a little frustrated by is that I feel like you think > people of a particular political belief are doing *more* work than others, > and wow, that is not my experience at all. The people who complain the > most about "chilling effects" are, in my experience, the people who are > doing the *least* amount of work in most conversations. > > And that may still be a lot of work! That may still be really hard for > them! I'm not saying this to say that they're doing very little work in > some objective sense. > > What I am saying is that they seem oblivious to the fact that the people > on the other side of the discussion are *also* doing a *considerable* > amount of work on how they communicate, and when, and what wording they > use, and have been all along. They're just not complaining about it, > because they realize this is just the normal price of human social > community. > > > I find this notion that if anyone has any concern or confusion about if > > their opinions are OK to express it's only because they are wrong very > > troubling. > > That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm sorry that it came across that > way. Having concern and confusion about whether your opinions are okay to > express is *also* part of being an adult. This is a universal experience.
Thanks for clarifying. I understand your perspective much better now and appreciate the apology. For clarification from me, I don't expect a consequence free free-for-all where anything at all can be said with no repercussions. There are absolutely things that are not acceptable, but on the other hand, I also don't think "someone was offended" is a reasonable standard (and I am not claiming that's what Debian is currently using - but there are places where things seem to me to be headed in that direction). I am concerned about Debian becoming over-politicized (beyond the core issue of Free Software, which has an inherent political aspect). I like that the diversity statement isn't anti-anything. My personal challenges with engaging constructively don't derive from any particular political perspective. They come more from having a strong temper over which my grasp is unfortunately not always adequate and being old enough that I worry about language shifting under me in ways I can't anticipate. Scott K
