On 12/10/05, Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
Hi Azeem,
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 02:49:35AM -0800, Josh Rehman wrote:
> > My apologies for sending this message here, but I wasn't sure where to
> > complain. I've been an off-and-on debian user over the years. Lately
> > I've used RedHat at work. I was thinking of trying Debian again, and
> > heard about Ubuntu. I could find very little on the web compairing
> > Ubuntu with Debian. I wanted to know a little more before making a
> > choice, and a word or two from an experienced person would be enough.
> >
> > and the mention of 'On-line Real Time Help Using IRC'. Unfortunately
> > this did not work out as planned. I was almost immediately banned for
> > even mentioning Ubuntu. This when I had found someone with real-life
> > deb and ubu experience ('det'). After the ban was lifted, the
> > operator "dondelecaro' refused to answer my question about complaining
> > about this annoying ban, and in fact banned me again when I mentioned
> > this fact. Another user suggested that I send a message to this list.
>
> Looking at the log, your question was being addressed for 10 minutes
> before you were silenced (definetely more than "a word or two"), and
> dondelecaro gave you useful input as well. When the discussion seemed
> to drift away, you were advised to take it elsewhere, which you
> declined. You were also warned several times that you were being
> off-topic.
My question had been partially addressed, but one user brought up an
interesting idea of "goal oriented development model" - which begs the
question of what sort of "development model" debian has.
As for being warned, I was told that because my discussion was about
ubuntu I should stop. Because I felt my discussion was not about
ubuntu, I did not feel that I should have to stop.
> Also note that the channel's topic reads, besides others: "Please note:
> this is not #ubuntu."
Absolutely. What is wrong with understanding Debian better by figuring
out where it differs from one of its derivations?
> I don't particularly agree with the second ban, though.
Glad to hear; it is roughly equivalent to a customer service person
hanging up on you when you ask to talk to their manager.
> > Let me say first that I don't expect much to come from this complaint.
> > I understand fully well that Debian is organized and run by
> > volunteers. Furthermore, my case is not clear cut since I wasn't shut
> > down for asking about "KDE" when the moderator really only wanted to
> > talk about "Gnome", for example. My query bordered on an advocacy like
> > discussion. However, I think I was careful to keep it nuetral - I
> > really just wanted to know what value-add ubuntu has over Debian that
> > has given it such a buzz. In addition, the operator gave me no
> > external link to read or alternative channel (with the exception of
> > telling me to take it to #ubuntu which I frankly don't see why an op
> > there wouldn't tell me to go to #debian...)
>
> > If in fact I was in the wrong, I apologize, but if that's the case
> > it's quite possible (even likely) that many users will be steered
> > toward debian's IRC channel with the wrong expectations. Perhaps a
> > disclaimer should be placed in the http://www.us.debian.org/support
> > page that states, "The debian IRC channel is for technical support
> > only. In other words, you should be posting nothing but error messages
> > and the occasional config file. No other traffic will be tolerated."
>
> In my experience, off-topic discussion is tolerated for a while until
> it starts to drift away. The main purpose of the channel is indeed
> end-user support, and maybe the description could be changed to better
> reflect this.
I'm still not really clear on why asking questions about Debian is
off-topic on #debian. Sure, they are questions related to Ubuntu, but
they are primarily about Debian. I frankly don't see the point of
Ubuntu - AFAICT it's primary difference is billionaire flash. Being
pointed to #ubuntu by Don and then banned by him reminds me of the
sort of runaround one experiences with hardware vendors: "it's not our
problem, call Microsoft". Microsoft says, "its not our problem, call
the hardware vendor." Hardware vendor, "well, maybe you should contact
the reseller." Etc.
> Still, one would assume that newcomers (even to IRC) would accept that
> their concern is off-topic and not try to argue with the channel
> operators. Just because you know no better channel to ask, doesn't mean
> an issue is on-topic in #debian.
I've had experience with IRC in the distant past (1999?), and
egotistical users were a primary reason I don't use the service. I had
expected a debian channel to be different.
> Further, you were given directions on how to continue your discussion
> with `det' in private, but decided to continue argueing against
> `dondelecaro' instead.
Frankly, I didn't understand those instructions. Furthermore, I still
disagreed that my questions about Debian were off-topic in #debian.
> > Full transcript attached. (My user name in the transcript is "josh__").
>
> I took the liberty to edit it to the discussion at hand, to filter out
> the unrelated chatter. My nick is `azeem'. Note that I do not think
> that `deadcat' is acting reasonable in this discussion, either.
> Attitudes like his make newcomers feel unwelcome and only add to the
> heat.
Telling a new user to "shut up" first thing is traditional troll
behavior - another reason I stopped using IRC back in the day. The
ecosystem works like this: someone like deadcat is not banned because
they invariably support the ego-tripping op.
Thanks for the edit. (Snipped for brevity)
IRC is just not for me, I think. I'm glad I gave it another shot,
though. I would *highly* recommend altering the support page and/or
setting down clear guidlines for channel operators. It might be good
to find an operator who is humble, helpful, patient and intelligent.
--
"All the soarings of my mind begin in my blood."
-Rainer Maria Rilke
