On Feb 7, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Thomas Koch wrote: > Stefane Fermigier: >> On Feb 6, 2011, at 10:29 PM, Vincent Fourmond wrote: >>> JARs in a source package. We absolutely need every single package >>> compiled from source, and that includes their dependencies. That's why >>> packaging Java applications for Debian is so much of a pain ;-)... >>> More on that there: >>> >>> http://vince-debian.blogspot.com/2009/03/java-packaging-nightmare.html >> >> Well, if packaging Java applications in Debian is a nightmare, shouldn't be >> Debian's responsibility to make it less of a nightmare to its developers >> or contributors ? > As you write yourself below, "That's not how we do things in the Java world",
I should have added "in the open source java world" actually. > there is a clear and fundamental difference between the Java world and all > free software distributions (not only Debian). That's what I wrote in the first email in this thread, if you remember. > Both sides have reasons, why they're doing things their way. Naturally I tend > to agree more with the points of the free software distributions. However you > can't just say that only the distributions should move (if they can at all > without violating licenses). > We're actively and hard working to resolve these issues. However java is free > only since 2007. Only then it started to make sense for free software > distributions to invest effort to resolve issues. The jpackage.org has been around for much longer than this. I remember it was already around in 2005, and I see it's been registered in 2001. > I'm aware of talks given at last years FOSDEM, German linuxtag and last > weekend's FOSDEM to raise awareness about the issues and discuss them. Inside > Debian people are building tools to make java packaging less of a nightmare. > However this all takes time. > I could now continue to express my anger about java developers which regard > windows as the "default development system", java developers who don't give a > shit about licenses or don't even know to tell the difference between GPL and > the Apache License, java developers who don't care that maven pulls jars > without any cryptographic protection, java developers who think it's good > enough if their code runs only against one specific point version of a > library > and java developers who don't understand, why anybody should want to rebuild > their binary jars from source, - but I really shouldn't. :-) I don't know those developers, I mostly hang with open source java developers actually ;) > >>> BTW, redistributing JAR files is not always a very good idea: >>> imagine you have a JAR of a (L)GPLed library, and for a reason or >>> another you lose the source (if only because you never had it as you >>> got binary JARs from upstream). Then, you fail the terms of the GPL >>> and cannot redistribute the JARs, since you would be at loss to >>> provide the source. >> >> That's not how we do things in the Java world, especially when we are using >> Maven. >> >> Note that when using Maven, those jars come usually from >> http://repo1.maven.org/, so the responsibility for providing the source >> code for these jars actually falls upon the owner of maven.org, which >> happens to be jvan...@codehaus.org - not upon us. > As far as I understand the GPL, this statement is not correct. If you > distribute the jar, you also need to guarantee the availability of the source > code for the next three years. If the source code would not be available > anymore on some other site, you're f**cked. This is not 100% safe, but if someone asks me to provide the sources for a JAR and I can't find them, I can ask the same to Jason. Same if someone sues us. So I guess in this case the root of all evil (like often in the Java world) comes from Maven... S. -- Stefane Fermigier, Founder and Chairman, Nuxeo Open Source, Java EE based, Enterprise Content Management (ECM) http://www.nuxeo.com/ - +33 1 40 33 79 87 - http://twitter.com/sfermigier Join the Nuxeo Group on LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/groups?gid=43314 New Nuxeo release: http://nuxeo.com/dm54 "There's no such thing as can't. You always have a choice." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-java-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/70db1d5b-dfb3-48ee-baec-07d806ed9...@nuxeo.com
