On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 04:17:11PM +0200, Carsten Schoenert wrote:
With every email you write more about this non topic to obviously most of the longer time DDs you disqualifies yourself more in my eyes.
[snip]Sorry this is replying to you, Carsten -- this isn't about your message really -- since this is an attitude that I've seen a lot of on this thread. Don't take this personally, it's a more general comment.
Debian has done a (IMHO great) job avoiding a caste system within the project. As soon as someone gets their project membership, they have the same constitutionally defined permissions as any other member. It was a big discussion around adding DMs, and it was a big point of discussion for allowing DDs without upload rights full project rights. "Time Served" in the Debian mines or wasta isn't a qualification for raising a GR. In fact, if I had to draw a correlation line, I think time spent in the project is only really indicative of how generally grumpy someone is. Myself included. No one is more a DD because they are entrusted to serve a job in the project, be it DPL, delegate, secretary or what have you.
To be clear, I remain of the view that I think this GR effort is misguided and sets a bad precedent. The more I think about and read this, the more it strikes me as something that would be yet another step in the directon of defeating the purpose of delegates -- forcing project design by committee / most beige outcome, all to avoid having a conversation with people doing the work.
It's frustrating because I think f=f is the right technical outcome here. I'm just not convinced that the series of actions taken here is going to result in any progress. In fact, I think it may do the opposite.
This GR is flawed, IMVHO, on the merits -- we should affirm our trust and confidence in the listmaster@ team, and to the extent to which this matters to the BTS, the bts admins. Delegates work together. Roles overlap. Doing it via GR is only going to build resentment throughout the project over something no one ever tried to broker an agreement with the relevant folks -- where there may even be some consensus on what we want to do going forward.
We don't know **because no one asked**. Doing it this way will entrench the two sides of this topic and we'll be stuck with no progress and more ~~feelings~~ as a result.
However, this GR is not flawed because Soren is a "new DD". That has nothing to do with this and -- with so much respect and affection for all of you -- I think that attitude fucking sucks. Soren has every right
to suggest this GR. I just disagree it's a good idea for the project and how we get work done. There is **no** reason a DD who got their account 5 minutes prior can't suggest a GR if they know what they're doing. With love, paultag -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Paul Tagliamonte <paultag> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ https://people.debian.org/~paultag | https://pault.ag/ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ Debian, the universal operating system. ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀ 4096R / FEF2 EB20 16E6 A856 B98C E820 2DCD 6B5D E858 ADF3
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