Daniel, On Mon, 2 Sep 2024, at 19:41, Daniel Gröber wrote: > Hi Lukas, > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 12:19:20PM +0200, Lukas Märdian wrote: >> Surveying the wrong set of people will lead to unusable data. Henry Ford >> summarized this nicely some 100 years ago, when asked about customer input >> in the development of the Ford Model T automobile: "If I had asked people >> what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
> You're continuing to confirm my pre-existing view that netplan infantilizes > it's users as you're applying the same thinking to the entire Debian > community here. I don’t think this language is particularly helpful. > In my mind Debian is an operating system for experts (perhaps > aspiring). Treating users like they are going to hurt themselves if we > listen to them is not acceptable conduct in this community in my opinion. Debian is an operating system for everyone. For experts. For novices. For non-technical users. In any case, even experts often want to have a break and have things just work without having to write kilobytes of config. >> IMO, the data is already there in all the different (Mini-)DebConf and >> email discussion over the past couple of year. If people were just happy >> with /etc/network/interfaces, we wouldn't have this discussion year after >> year after year.. > The "data" sources you mention are severely biased in one way or > another. You complain about unusable data above only to suggest even more > obviously unusable data here. I don't find this very convincing. Data point: I’m a previous maintainer of ifupdown. I don’t use it anymore and don’t think it’s a very good default for Debian these days. >> I'm afraid all of this will just further delay the decision making for >> another year/Debian release. > So what? So far you're the only one complaining about this. What skin do > you have in the game if we don't move forward on this other than having an > obviously biased interest in having netplan be a standard? Please, can we have no conflict of interest accusations? Others might not complain loudly because they don’t have energy to argue (like myself). >> It's really hard for me to take it serious this way. I've researched this >> topic for well over a year now, discussed it with people involved and >> tried to bring reasonable options to the table. Explicitly asking for any >> additional options, so we can refine/merge and find consesns. It almost >> feels like you'd be mostly interested in just delaying/blocking progress >> here.. :-( > I promise you I'm not intentionally, but I do recognize that it may be a > side-effect. Likewise I feel like you're just interested in pushing this > through as quickly as possible. > > Consider that for you time is an ally, being employed to work on this > (AFAICT?). For the rest of us not so much. Debian is a primarily a > volunteer project. Please stop pushing for doing things faster. I don’t think Lukas is rushing things too much. We should have had this conversation ages ago. Perhaps I should have started it instead of resigning as the maintainer back in the day. -- Cheers, Andrej
