On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:12:02PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-11 11:21:14) > > On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: > >> Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet > >> access. Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing > >> countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when > >> using it may apply security fixes less often. > > > > How poor is poor? > > Poor enough that they bother visitors coming from different places in > the World asking them to please consider bring install data "by > sneakernet" (e.g. on CDs but could just as well be floppies or uSD > storage embedded in iPhones - physical media type not important). > > I call it "bother" not because I have experienced actually being > bothered by such request, but because I have experienced being treated > like a king in India and Indonesia yet asked that - surprising to me - > requst.
With "how poor is poor" to please give numbers. Something to work with. Regarding bringing install media: Been there, done that. Including the bits of passing it along various people because cd's got "lost" in the post. I urge you to be concrete. Numbers. > > I've been participating since having a theoretical 64KB/s cable > > connection, which in practice only did 3-5KB/s (provider: BART in > > Rotterdam)! A cd would take about 24 hours to download (net install > > was sometimes unreliable, so I preferred a cd). Having a poor > > connection means you get creative. I shared the cd's I downloaded, > > used rewritable to push the cost down, etc. > > How poor was that example of poor? I gave exact numbers, please don't give vague replies. It's not helpful. > > I've checked http://explorer.netindex.com/maps which shows the Speed > > test results across the world. According to that site, the minimal > > speed I can see in various African countries is at least 0.75 Mbps. > > Much higher than the speed I was used to. > > How expensive is such average speed? Not measured in dollar, but > measured in something more locally tangible, like "work hours"? How about doing that research yourself. You're saying to take into account third world countries, yet not giving any numbers. I gave you the average speed of a lot of countries. It seems to not match with your expectations. Cool, then it is NOT up to me to figure out why your still might be right. > > Always having a slow connection changes means you're tolerance level > > is different. I used to download a cd in 24 hours. Nowadays the same > > takes maybe 35 seconds. > > Still you are talking about cost in time. Few I have met in developing > countries were poor measured in time available. No, I am not just talking about cost in time. I gave concrete measures. You've entire reply lacks anything concrete. Nothing to work with *AT ALL*. Quantify! I've said before I have experience with working around low bandwidth, but it seems nothing is acceptable. That's ok, because then this usecase cannot be fulfilled anyway. > > I don't get the doom and gloom unless you're more clear. > > Please elaborate what is unclear. Please explain: - Why this problem did not exist when GNOME used to be a default - In case it was a problem before, why GNOME was still used - In case it was acceptable, why isn't it acceptable now - Why is XFCE acceptable - Why is the only acceptable solution changing the default DE for everyone - What install size is acceptable - What install size was it with GNOME before - What bandwidth is acceptable - Why cant this be solved by e.g. mailing cd's? - If Debian 6.0 200MB netinst cd uses GNOME - If Debian 7.6 290MB netinst cd uses XFCE Your arguments come up as arbitrary, especially when considering GNOME used to be a default. Coupled with vague non-specific replies comes off as pretty disrespectful. -- Regards, Olav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140811185503.gb22...@bkor.dhs.org
