Dear Andrew, On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Andrew Lee <ajq...@debian.org> wrote:
> Dear all, > > Thanks for Rex's input. Actually, this IRC meeting was a direct > suggestion made by Rex in his July 24th email response about the DOT issue: > > "I suggest Andrew arrange a meeting on IRC or Skype, when the others > who are interested about this matter to explain what's 'legal > organization' and have a discussion on Internet." > > > I've faithfully adopted another request earlier as invite SPI folks to > join the discussion on DOT members' email thread. > It's really appreciated to bring SPI folks like Joerg into the loop. Thank you. > > Joerg Jaspert(Vice-President of SPI) responded to the DOT members' email > thread on Aug. 4th. There has been no reply to Joerg’s input from the > DOT members until now. This is very encouraging to see feedbacks aiming > to address the DOT issue. > Andrew, why so hurry? I prefer to have a thoroughly discussion and make DOT members come out a general understanding first then we have a proper response to SPI instead of over-heated discussion in front of them. This process takes a while and I don't believe this has to be done in few weeks. Pushing too hard on this topic while ignoring our voted decision will make people misunderstand what you are trying to pursue. > > I think we should continue the momentum to drive this IRC meeting to > seriously consider SPI’s initiative. > I do believe many of us are exciting to have some sort of relationship with SPI. But how and when and what will be a big topic for us to think and discuss. Here is my two cents. Yours, Jouston > Kindly regards, > > -Andrew > > Rex Tsai wrote: > > Hi, Andrew > > > > Thanks for response to the public, after ignoring Jesse's request in > > email and me for face-to-face discussion in DBP last weekend. :-) > > > > A few quick feedback on SPI cooperation (SPI is not an issue, please) > > > > * Since DOT is a local user group, which is managed by a local team. I > > am afraid not everyone can express and understand English properly in > > the IRC meeting, since English is not our native language. So, I > > suggested DOT team set up a meeting in Chinese which we can clear most > > of issues and misunderstandings before we as a team talk to SPI. > > > > * Also, if we decide to join SPI as associated project, we need to > > elect a project liaison from the DOT team, who can give authoritative > > decisions. > > > > * Regarding to the debian.org.tw and debian.tw (the DOT team secured > > debian.tw lately from an non-debian-related commercial company). As a > > Debian promoter group, the DOT team is happy to manage the domain name > > in the best interests of that community. However, so far as I can see, > > transfer to SPI does not solving the managing problems, but increase > > more paper works only. Also, there are other associations manage Debian > > domain name in Japan, Norway, Spain and France. So, transfer the domain > > name and assets to SPI is not the only solution. > > > > * Anyone can apply SPI's non-contributing membership, and associated > > project can be contributing membership. I don't see how official > > presence is meaningful expect Andrew can present Taiwan users for his > > own political interests. > > > >> Andrew Lee wrote: > >> To have a SPI affiliated Debian.Org.TW means that Taiwan will have an > >> official presence from the perspective of SPI’s view. The presence is > >> meaningful because so far attending Debian held international > >> conferences have been individual participation instead of representing > >> Taiwan as a whole > > > > * I agreed we need a non-profit organization to entrust the DOT's > > domain name and assets, I also agreed the organization should not be > > managed by only a few people. This issue is what we are trying to fix, > > at the mean time we also are not comfortable on the current situation. > > The domain name is registered under not-so-familiarity organization, and > > Andrew keep ignoring team's request to transfer it to trusted team > member. > > > > * The DOT team have set up a focus group on studying the legal > > framework of SPI and local laws and regulations. The focus group > > currently has three members - Jesse Sung, Mat Lee and Rex Tsai. The > > others are welcome to join us. > > > > * Regarding to the tax reduction benefit, SPI as a US registered 501(c) > > non-profit organization simply don't fulfill the local regulation. As > > the one of the organizators of biggest FLOSS conference COSCUP[2] in > > Taiwan, I can understand what sponsors need for local regulation. We > > need a local organization to managed the resources and provide tax > > reduction benefit. This is the goal of the focus group. > > > > * What we need to do is to understand what's the best way to work as > > partner with SPI, maybe like ffis e.V in Germany or Associazione > > Software Libero in Italy. However, this will take time to study and sort > > out legal and tax issues. > > > > * The last thing, Andrew Lee please don't play political game with us. > > (by ignoring other's important decisions and opinions, and quote out of > > context in email to the public) Please don't ignore the > > requests and resolution of the team, which is based on the result of > > poll. You will make us have not choice to move on without you. > > > > 1. http://www.debian.org/trademark > > 2. http://coscup.org/2009/en/ > > > > Best Regards > > -Rex > > > > Andrew Lee wrote on 08/25/2009 05:39 PM: > >> Dear All, > >> > >> I am glad to see more than 30 people who attended the Taiwan Debian > >> Meeting - Debian Birthday Party last weekend. We shared the special > >> Debian 5.0.2 Arch 'All' and had a lot of fun. It was a great meeting!! > >> > >> Please forward this message to these people. Someone must has their > >> contact information either email or phone, or even have both. > >> > >> Thanks for all your feedback about the SPI issue thus far generated in > >> that DOT members email thread. I am grateful to many people’s input > >> especial the one from Rex. > >> > >> I would like to propose an IRC meeting to discuss an issue which has > >> been actively in discussions for a while, namely, does Taiwanese Debian > >> community need to have a global presence through opening its Doman name > >> to SPI (Software in the Public Interest)? > >> > > ... cut ... > >> >From the above list, we can see that Debian is a registered trademark > of > >> Software in the Public Interest, Inc. Therefore, it is very natural for > >> SPI to manage Debian related Domain Names. SPI has been in charge of > >> Debian official domain names around the world. > >> > >> To have a SPI affiliated Debian.Org.TW means that Taiwan will have an > >> official presence from the perspective of SPI’s view. The presence is > >> meaningful because so far attending Debian held international > >> conferences have been individual participation instead of representing > >> Taiwan as a whole. > >> > >> Taiwan also has specific rules about domain name ownership. Basically, > >> the .ORG domain name can’t be owned by any individual except the > >> ownership was in effect before the passing of the domain law. > >> > >> In short, the benefits of joining the SPI stream are the followings: > >> 1. Link with Debian main project officially > >> 2. To have an formal presence at SPI > >> 3. Taiwan can have its official signature when attending Debain > >> held international conferences. > >> 4. To be eligible for tax reduction benefit when making donations to > >> SPI and server bandwidth to DOT( if the DOT is individually owned, it > >> will limited its growth because the Debian community in Taiwan will have > >> difficulty to ask for help which only available to non-profit > organizations) > >> 5. And also for future Debian syncproxy in Asia > >> 6. Further Debian related events such as > >> DebCamp/mini-DebConf/DebConf in Taiwan. :) > >> > >> Joerg Jaspert already created an IRC channel called #spi-tw on oftc.net > >> for this. For all of your convenience, we hasn't decided the date and > >> time yet. > >> > >> Please recommend a reasonable time and a date for this. > >> > >> Kindly regards, > >> > >> -Andrew > >> > >> Joerg Jaspert wrote: > >>> Hello everyone, > >>> > >>> I'm sorry that my reply took this long, but DebConf didn't leave me > much > >>> time to draft a proper reply, and then I was taking a weekend basically > >>> off. > >>> > >>> Now, as I don't know who of you knows me, let me shortly introduce > >>> myself. I am a Linux user since somewhere around 2000, a Debian > >>> Developer since 2002, SPI head admin since 2006 and a member of the SPI > >>> Board of Directors and SPIs Vice President since 2007. > >>> > >>>>> 6. Yesterday, he sent an email said SPI is willing to handle the > domain > >>>>> name 'debian.org.tw' immediately. Which is totally different as what > he > >>>>> told me, and we are surprised by this information. This message to me > >>>>> looks like no matter what the others vote, he will work with Debian > >>>>> folks by transfer the domain name and other resources to SPI. > >>> Lets take some heat out of the discussion: SPI will not act on anything > >>> if there is no clear consensus on what should be done. > >>> > >>>>>> Andrew, could you please provide a more detailed overview of what > would > >>>>>> change if we go the way you proposed? > >>>>>> What would happen > >>>>>> * to the servers (hardware)? > >>>>>> * administration rights and access to the servers? > >>>>>> * to eventual policies or procedures for DOT members? > >>>>>> * on the legal side (who is going to set up a legal entity and > how?)? > >>>>>> * to change on the community side? > >>>>>> * to the decision making process? > >>> To all of the above the answer is: Nothing and everything. :) > >>> > >>> It is not SPIs goal to take over administration of servers of member > >>> projects. We can do so if we get asked, but we prefer not to. > >>> Nor do we want to rule those projects, in whatever way. We also don't > >>> take decisions for our member projects. We may aid you to find a good > >>> decision if you ask, but we are SPI, not $PROJECT, we are not the > people > >>> to decide for $PROJECT. > >>> > >>> The goal and usual working mode of SPI is a different one. We do > support our > >>> member projects in the way they want and need support. And we provide a > >>> clean interface between SPI and the project over which our actions can > >>> be controlled/started. (In case of Debian that is the DPL, other > projects > >>> nominate liaisons that interact with us). > >>> > >>> > >>> Now, I honestly have about *no* knowledge of laws in your country and > >>> also don't know the rules attached to .org.tw domains and who might > own > >>> them. There is certainly lots we have to discuss before we can decide > if > >>> DOT wants to join SPI, or if there should be an own legal entity in > your > >>> country doing something similar than SPI *or* if you simply go on like > >>> you did in the past. > >>> The only thing I want to advice against is having project owned assets > >>> assigned to an individual, like the debian.org.tw currently is. After > >>> all this means a single person has to lose interest and go MIA, and you > >>> are in trouble. Even worse if that person is on the bad side of an > >>> accident... > >>> > >>> > >>> *Assuming* you would join SPI (and all the legal stuff is ok with it), > >>> SPI would *offer* to take over the .debian.org.tw domain and manage it > in > >>> behalf of DOT. Which could be fully managing it (like we do with > >>> emdebian.org) or simply pointing the NS entries to machines DOT > controls > >>> (like we do with debian.org, where we own the Domain but Debian admins > >>> do the work). > >>> > >>> The same motto ("we do what the projects want, as long as it fits SPIs > >>> goals and is legal") holds true for other assets we manage for our > >>> projects. Which, besides Domain names and trademark holding, is > handling > >>> money and giving legal advice. > >>> > >>> Now, as SPI is US-based (I'm german, but the organisation is officially > >>> placed in New York), this might not be something DOT needs. We > >>> definitely have to find this out. > >>> > >>>>> Actually, the most active service is the forum (moto.debian.org.tw > ) > >>>>> and the wiki. I only care do we are still free to manage the server > and > >>>>> develop any service. > >>> Assuming you would join SPI: You wouldn't give up anything you have > >>> now, *except* that you should not work against SPIs goals. So as long > as > >>> you don't, like, start advocating non-free and closed systems, you > would > >>> be all well. > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- Linuxer Jouston http://jouston.no-ip.com Email/MSN: jouston(AT)jouston.no-ip.com ICQ:12274031 Wagaly Talk number: 070-707-014 Skype me: jouston IRC(Freenode/Debian): jouston
