On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Adrian Bunk wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:20:46PM +0200, Piotr Kolasi?ski wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:24:11AM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > >... > > > s390x is the only headless release architecture. > > > This was a real pain for the Debian GNOME maintainers already before > > > the last release, without any support from s390x porters on fixing > > > this issue.[1] > > I don't agree. Fact, that s390x doesn't have direct display doesn't mean > > that graphical tools are not used. > >... > > Fact is that the s390x port is different from all other ports in Debian. > And it is causing extra work to support such a port.
> Which is an even bigger problem when there are no porters doing this work. A lack of porters is an issue. The reason I don't 'lend a hand' here is the Byzantine and opaque nature of Debian 'hoop jumping' I say this having approached Ian Murdock (rip), and his former employee Jeff Licquia, each through the good offices of weekly LSB conference calls, trying to get past that > I do not know whether there is anything special about threading on s390x > compared to other Linux architectures, but porters are expected to know. A reproducer was not included. File a bug and I'll look at it > Debian does not have a service agreement with IBM for maintaining the > Debian kernel on s390x, it is the duty of the s390x porters to maintain > the Debian kernel and debug problems in the Debian kernel. 'duty' as a concept in a social voluntary organization is a slippery concept. Many people asserting duties by others are really seeking free support, and then disappear like magic. That gets tiring, is not sustainable, and long ago at CentOS, I set the standard and tone that we don't facilitate such behaviour [that has changed with the RHT/IBM purchase, but the history stands] > > > A port like s390x with unique problems is only sustainable when several > > > people with good knowledge of Debian, s390x hardware and the Linux > > > kernel have a long-term commitment of swiftly supporting everyone in > > > Debian with s390x problems. > > Good point - the question is why there is not so many people with "good > > knowledge of Debian" in Mainframe environment? It is true there are not many known outside of more s390x focussed mailing lists, as there is no material Debian 'uptake' in an Enterprise production environment. That space is small enough that it supports about three non IBM, or SUSE players with more than 20 employees > Debian is a volunteer project. > s390x is a business-to-business affair. > > Other ports have a community of people who have a Raspberry Pi or > an old hppa workstation at home. umm Not to put too fine a point on this fine rant, but I've been building and supporting a community rebuild of RHEL for several years [called ClefOS] now on s390 and s390x (no longer s390, as interest died off) I did so back in the days when I was an active member of the CentOS project (one of its founders, actually), before RHT / IBM 'bought it out' I've pushed in fixes needed for LSB / FHS purposes from time to time in the past Build machines are readily available, without charge, through Marist Univerity, as well as the more recent IBM spoonsored Linux One As I recall, Alpine has been building a viable s390x community distribution for the last couple of years as well Rick Troth ( a well known s390x'er in the community ) has his 'Nord' standalone distribution -- Russ herrold
