Css Discuss wrote:
> I am a PHP programmer who used to do only front end stuff in the time
> before managers accepted CSS as a valid way to mark up web pages.
...and I'm a semi-retired software/hardware developer and professional
problem-solver, that now spends available time on making mark up/CSS
work for myself and others - both as a job and as a hobby.
> Now I'd really like to get up to speed on CSS but everytime I start
> to get into it, it seems like, "oh to make that work in that browser
> I'll need this work around, or it's going to do this or that".
>
> That sucks!!! Is there no logic here?
Not much... :-)
...and what's there will probably be deprecated pretty soon anyway - if
not by W3C then by some over-eager standardista.
The logic is that CSS is an _addition_ to proper mark up. CSS can add
presentational "magic" to good mark up. CSS can not do much to improve
documents with weak mark up, no matter how hard one tries.
> So is sticking to the "CSS High Road" like being in Mad Max and
> wanting to drive a car. "Yeah there're cool but there's no gas for
> 100 miles and if you want parts you'll have to kill someone for them!
> Oh yeah and watch out for the guy on the helicopter thing with the
> snakes!!!"
Pretty close to the facts of life in general, and the web isn't an
exclusion-zone.
> What do YOU (plural) do?
>
> Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it
> doesn't look good!"?
That's my recipe (but I usually don't say it out loud).
> Your clients will like that.
Yeah, they do... :-)
...and then they pay the bills and come back for more of the same. Works
every time, but of course: it did take a while to _make_ it work.
> Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the
> design, so that browsers don't notice the difference? (Think Google)
Definitely not!
Much better to make it as complex as possible, so we're sure to provoke
at least a few dozen bugs and manage to make it look different in every
single browser on earth. Keeps boredom out of web design :-)
No need to go easy on those browsers, and UAs in general. We provide
them with proper 'mark up' and 'style', and its their job to deliver to
the end-user. If they don't do their job properly, then we may have to
force them to by any means necessary.
Make sure *not* to add anything beyond standards _until_ it is
_absolutely necessary_, as most solutions can be found in those standards.
Lack of standard-support across browser-land is of course a constant
problem - still, and that's why (even non-valid) workarounds may be the
only solution at times.
> Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work arounds
> so that instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in
> the work arounds that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?!
I don't bother to learn workarounds, as either I remember them - or
where someone has documented them - when they are needed, or I can ask
someone else.
And, you're right: the need for certain workarounds will (hopefully) be
gone in a few years - and/or be replaced by the need for entirely new
ones. It's a waste of time to learn more than a few of them.
Spending a few hours each month on studying standards and the effect
they have - or doesn't have - on browsers, is a much more efficient use
of time.
> I'd really like to get good with CSS, even REALLY good, I totally
> intrigued by them, as much as programming. It just feels hiking in
> deep mud,.. WAY too much work. I need to earn a living here.
A little resistance _now_ is good for your future career. Wouldn't be
any need for us if our jobs didn't require a certain amount of work and
insight.
> I need a pep talk!
Ok...
Most mark up/CSS related problems are in the mind of the designer/coder,
not in the standards or those browsers. Clean up your mind first, and
apply CSS second. Once you have gotten the hang of it it's no big deal.
May take from three months to three years to reach a comfortable level,
and from there it's a continuous learning-process until the whole thing
gets deprecated and replaced by something else and hopefully better.
So, the process is not much different from learning any other skill. If
you like what you're doing, then the entire learning-process can be a
lot of fun. It is to me, and it keeps getting funnier :-)
See you around.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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