I would add that "wild guesses based on not enough info" is an indispensable skill.
-----Original Message----- From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Hideki Kato Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 10:17 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zero is weaker than Master!? Xavier Combelle: <62b977d7-d227-a74d-04b7-0d46db6a7...@gmail.com>: >It is just wild guesses based on reasonable arguments but without >evidence. Yes, of course. Due to not enough info provided by Google. Hideki >Le 26/10/2017 à 07:51, Hideki Kato a écrit : >> You can believe >>> Of what I understand same network architecture imply the same number of >>> block >> but David Silver told AlphaGo Master used 40 layers in >> May. >> http://www.bestchinanews.com/Science-Technology/1 0371.html >> # The paper was submitted in April. >> >> Usually, network "architecture" does not imply the num ber of >> layers whereas "configulation" may do. >> >> Clearly they made 40 layers version first because it's >> called "1st instance" where the 80 layers one is called "2nd >> instance." The 1st was trained 3 days and overtoo k AlphaGo >> Lee. Then they changed to the 2nd. Awaring t his fact, and >> watching the growing curve of the 1st, I g uess 40 layers was >> not enough to reach AlphaGo Master le vel and so they >> doubled the layers. >> >> Hideki >> >> Xavier Combelle: <1550c907-8b96-e4ea-1f5e-2344f394b967 @gmail.com>: >>> As I understand the paper they directly cre ated alphago zero with a 40 >>> block >>> setup. >>> They just made a reduced 20 block setup to co mpare on kifu prediction >>> (as far as I searched in the pa per, it is the only >>> place where they mention the 20 bloc k setup) >>> They specifically mention comparing several ver sion of their software. >>> with various parameter >>> If the number of block was an important parameter I hope they would >>> mention it. >>> Of course they are a lot of things that they try and failed and we >>> will >>> not know about >>> But I have hard time to believe that alphago zero with a 20 block is >>> one >>> of them >>> About the paper, there is no mention of the number of block of master: >>> "AlphaGo Master is the program that defeated top human players by >>> 600 >>> in January, 2017 34 . >>> It was previously unpublished but uses the same neural network >>> architecture, reinforcement >>> learning algorithm, and MCTS algorithm as described in this paper. >>> However, it uses the >>> same handcrafted features and rollouts as AlphaGo Lee >>> and training was initialised by >>> supervised learning from human data." >>> Of what I understand same network architecture imply the same number >>> of >>> block >>> Le 25/10/2017 à 17:58, Xavier Combelle a écrit : >>>> I understand better >>>> Le 25/10/2017 à 04:28, Hideki Kato a écrit : >>>>> Are you thinking the 1st instance could reach Master level >>>>> if giving more training days? >>>>> I don't think so. The performance would be stopping >>>>> improving at 3 days. If not, why they built the 2nd >>>>> instance? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Hideki >>>>> Xavier Combelle: <05c04de1-59c4-8fcd-2dd1-094faabf3...@gmail.com>: >>>>>> How is it a fair comparison if there is only 3 days of training >>>>>> for >>> Zero ? >>>>>> Master had longer training no ? Moreover, Zero has bootstrap >>>>>> problem >>>>>> because at the opposite of Master it don't learn from expert >>>>>> games >>>>>> which means that it is likely to be weaker with little training. >>>>>> Le 24/10/2017 à 20:20, Hideki Kato a écrit : >>>>>>> David Silver told Master used 40 layers network in May. >>>>>>> According to new paper, Master used the same architecture >>>>>>> as Zero. So, Master used 20 blocks ResNet. >>>>>>> The first instance of Zero, 20 blocks ResNet version, is >>>>>>> weaker than Master (after 3 days training). So, with the >>>>>>> same layers (a fair comparison) Zero is weaker than >>>>>>> Master. >>>>>>> Hideki >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Computer-go mailing list >>>>>> Computer-go@computer-go.org >>>>>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Computer-go mailing list >>> Computer-go@computer-go.org >>> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > >_______________________________________________ >Computer-go mailing list >Computer-go@computer-go.org >http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp> _______________________________________________ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go _______________________________________________ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
