I wonder if instead of joseki, some special rules could be applied in the opening that make it more likely to play correct joseki? I suppose this is no different than just making it play better in general but a specific case.
- Don On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 03:39 -0700, terry mcintyre wrote: > There really is a gap between a strong dan-level amateur and a pro player; > pros routinely give large handicaps to amateurs to allow them a fair chance > to win. Those of us who watched the game can say that there was a marked > improvement in quality as Mogo was given more tine to work with. The pro did > not use all 60 minutes on his clock; I believe he used about 10 or 12 > minutes. The game is only a single data point, but he indicated that he might > have difficulty winning with 8 stones as well; Mogo was actually ahead by > more then 1.5 points, but in classic montecarlo style, did not maximize the > win; it is indifferent to the size of the win. > > > I'll back David Doshay: in ten years, a supercomputer will play pros on an > even basis - provided that Moore's Law continues to increase the power of > supercomputers. I also believe that some algorithmic improvements, which > previously were not useful, will be of value with more powerful processors. > > We have a saying "learn joseki, lose three stones". Lower-level players learn > book moves, but do not know how to preserve their advantage. With ten-minute > games, Mogo was in that state - unable to preserve the advantage. When given > 60 minutes, it had a playing style which could generate joseki plays at need > - but it consumed a lot of time. > > This is interesting - given enough time and processing power, an algorithm > which knows nothing about joseki or opening books will converge to joseki. > These are plays which many very smart humans have studied for thousands of > years; it is not surprising that they should be optimal or near-optimal. > > Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > “Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state > education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit > obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.” > > > Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: computer-go <computer-go@computer-go.org> > Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 10:16:35 AM > Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: mogo beats pro! > > I think events like this are great. They generate interest and > excitement and are great fun. > > But they have very little scientific value. They are wide open for > speculation, non-objective analysis, etc. Often strong players fail to > take matches like this seriously because they are exhibitions with > nothing particular at stake. I don't know if this was the case or not > but I know it is happens. > > Also, it seems silly to me to find super strong players only to heavily > handicap them. What's with that? I know of course why, nobody > cares about an exhibition match with an ordinary player an thus it has > value. But it really underscores the nature of this kind of > exhibition, not really a significant scientific experiment. No serious > conclusions are possible. It's also rather silly to rank moves and > not performance in general over many games. Such and such a move was a > 5 dan move, this other move was a kyu level move, etc. This is a > sound bite to make people happy but isn't very quantifiable. > > Nevertheless, I have high praise that such an event took place, it's > always super-cool to be able to utilize such a powerful machine and this > was a good excuse to do so. > > I am left relatively confused about the outcome however. Someone gave a > computer a bunch of stones and it was able to beat a strong player. Is > that supposed to be exciting? I think I would simply be embarrassed > that it was believed that so many stones were necessary to even the > match. (Of course compared to a few years ago, this is an impressive > victory for a computer go program, although only a single data point.) > > I hope I don't come across as being critical, I think this was a great > idea and such matches should be arranged whenever possible. I just get > a little embarrassed when too much significance is made of it. > > - Don > > > > > > On Fri, 2008-08-08 at 10:13 -0400, Robert Waite wrote: > > I was in the KGS room for a couple of hours before the match and a > > couple after. I was very surprised by the result as many were. > > > > There still is a lack of clear information about the event. For > > example, when Kim said that the computer plays at maybe 2 or 3 dan... > > does he mean professional or amateur pro? The supercomputer itself is > > unclear... some had said it would be 3000+ cores... for the game they > > said 800 processors. Some said it was indeed 3000+ cores.. because > > each processor was 4 core. But I never found a clear answer on this. > > The records of discussion are in MogoTitan's sgf records.. but the > > discussions in the computer go room and perhaps private rooms are not > > recorded (at least that I know of). If someone did give this > > information, it was very easy to lose track of when 500 people were > > observing the match. Tonight I am probably going to go through the > > records to see if any more information can be gleaned. > > > > One person who seemed to be in the room with Kim said that he was > > laughing and clapping at some of the computer's moves. One person in > > this list, but not the AGA eJournal, mentioned that Kim used about 11 > > minutes time.. where the computer used around 50. This was surprising > > to me... Kim is reported to say that he felt having extra time would > > not have helped. To me... this seems a little odd. He may have used it > > as a tactic to give the computer less thinking time (if Mogo was > > indeed thinking during Kim's turn). He also might have done this to > > show that the computer is quite a bit weaker than him. It is really > > hard to tell what really happened without a good report on the event. > > AGA eJournal has been pretty vague about information so far.. the > > clapping and laughing indicates that Kim enjoyed playing the computer > > and my feeling from what I have seen so far is that he was not playing > > the computer as if he was playing a professional tournament. > > > > Anyway.. it was a huge event. It's almost like the first computer to > > reach shodan amateur (not exactly.. but in a way). My information > > about Mogo is pretty light... but it seems that there is a chance that > > one day.. the source will be opened up. This is completely a guess and > > I don't wish to spread false info... but Mogo appears to have been a > > grad student's work.. and when they finished their degree.. they > > passed the source onto other researchers at their university. I am not > > able to find the text that I am thinking about... but there was a > > sentence to the tune of "the source code is not available yet" and one > > of the big guys that was behind this event seems to have feelings the > > GNU is great and that source should be available (in general). I do > > however feel that they have worked hard and have had a big success... > > so they do deserve to have an edge at the moment.. as long as the > > source is given out eventually. I am particularly interested in what > > they did to make it scale well to many nodes. > > > > So congrats to the Mogo team and here is to a nice outlook for the > > future of computer go :) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > computer-go mailing list > > computer-go@computer-go.org > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
