I would prefer 1 hour actually, but it would take a really long time to get a substantial number of games in, so I think for practical reasons we shouldn't go that far. Unless we set up a special server just for Mogo vs ManyFaces. I could do that on my own computer.
I'm not sure what the status of the 19x19 server is, if it looks like it isn't going to happen I have another option. - Don David Fotland wrote: > most computer-computer tournaments have used 1 hour per side, and did 5 or 6 > rounds over 1 1/2 days. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >> David Fotland >> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:04 PM >> To: 'computer-go' >> Subject: RE: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS >> >> >> I have no problem with longer time controls. Many Faces 11 >> was tuned to play in about 45 minutes on hardware available >> in 2000. It won't take advantage of any extra time given. >> The global search is 1 ply with quiescence, and always will >> always complete, and the local search sizes are fixed at >> something like 200 nodes per search. >> >> David >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey >>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:53 AM >>> To: computer-go >>> Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS >>> >>> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> I argue that the matches should be longer, perhaps 30 minutes per >>> side. They should more closely resemble time controls used in a >>> serious competition. >>> >>> Here is the reason I say that. One could argue that with >>> computers it >>> doesn't matter, they do not need to be constrained as much >>> by our sense of time - they do not feel pressure or get >>> rattled if they play too fast >>> and they don't get bored or lose focus if they play too >>> >> slow. I've >> >>> argued that way myself many times. >>> >>> However, the choice of time control, in my estimation, has a >>> good chance of influencing the outcome, especially if we view >>> this as a test of a strong commercial program versus a new >>> experimental technology, which I think it is. Mogo is a >>> program that clearly performs better >>> with more time. I suspect that MFGO is a program that is close to >>> optimal at 10 or 15 minutes. I can't say that for sure, >>> perhaps you >>> can give us your insights on that. >>> >>> In such a case what is "fair" depends on the point of view of the >>> observer. If someone wanted to see Mogo dominate such a match he >>> would consider short time controls "unfair" and the >>> >> opposite would be >> >>> true if one wanted to see Many Faces win. Of course I could be >>> wrong, perhaps Many Faces is the one that would benefit more >>> from extra time - but I'm working from the assumption that >>> Mogo would benefit the most based on my own knowledge of how >>> UCT works. >>> >>> Regardless of the time control used another issue is the >>> selection of hardware. Doubling the computer power >>> effectively doubles the programs >>> thinking time. >>> >>> Having considered all of these issues, and also taking into >>> consideration that this is a contest of sorts, it makes >>> sense that we should testing at a level that simulates or at >>> least approaches serious >>> computer chess time-controls. Certainly no faster than >>> >> 30 minutes >> >>> per side. These are levels at which most humans will take >>> the results >>> seriously. >>> >>> In addition to this, it makes sense to know what hardware and what >>> time-setting is being used. Many programs on CGOS were set to play >>> very fast, often indicated their level in the name of the >>> program something like "mogo4k" or something similar. >>> >>> So if we set a liberal time control on CGOS 19x19 we could >>> publish the >>> identify of the players and draw conclusion based on that. Mogo >>> could be tested at several levels and/or hardware >>> configurations and so could Many Faces. It's not difficult >>> to set up a rotating script for >>> logging off one bot and starting up another. (By the way, >>> the right >>> way to do this is to select the bot RANDOMLY, not to >>> >> rotate back and >> >>> forth.) >>> >>> The server does report the time each side spent calculating >>> in the SGF files, although it's not reported on the web >>> sites, so this is useful >>> information if we are considering the scalability of >>> >> programs. My >> >>> feeling is that there is likely to be a crossover point - >>> that MFGO will win at time-controls faster than this and Mogo >>> will win at time-controls >>> slower than this. That point may be beyond what we can >>> >> test, or it >> >>> may be testable on the CGOS server soon. >>> >>> By the way, I would probably argue for longer than 30 >>> minutes per side, but for a server like CGOS that would >>> involve a long wait between >>> matches. >>> >>> Anyway, that's my 2 cents. >>> >>> - Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David Fotland wrote: >>> >>>> 10 minutes per side should be enough for Many Faces 11. >>>> >> Version 11 >> >>>> has fixed search limits, and only does time management if >>>> >>> it runs low >>> >>>> on time. It can usually play a game in 10 minutes on the >>>> >>> computer I'll >>> >>>> use. It will be slower against Mogo since the games are >>>> >> longer and >> >>>> there might me more unsettled situations to read. If you >>>> >>> do add more >>> >>>> time, 15 or 20 minutes per side should be enough. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>>>> >>> Chris Fant >>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:27 PM >>>>> To: computer-go >>>>> Subject: Re: [computer-go] 19x19 CGOS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I oppose more time per side. >>>>> >>>>> On 10/23/07, Christoph Birk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Olivier Teytaud wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.lri.fr/~teytaud/cgosStandings.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If someone wants to test it, the port is 6919 on machine >>>>>>> pc5-120.lri.fr. 10 minutes per side. But only try it if >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> you want to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> take risks, it is almost surely not stable yet, and the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> connection >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> might be refused for an unknown reason :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Am really curious to see MFGO, Crazystone and Mogo play at >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> 19x19. But >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I suggest allowing more time, at least 20 minutes per side. >>>>>> >>>>>> Christoph >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> computer-go mailing list >>>>>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>>>>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> computer-go mailing list >>>>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>>>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> computer-go mailing list >>>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> computer-go mailing list >>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> computer-go mailing list >> computer-go@computer-go.org >> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
