On May 7, 2013, at 14:25:52, Quincey Morris <quinceymor...@rivergatesoftware.com> wrote:
> 1. The software Steve is dealing with (Finale, I believe he has stated > earlier) has special needs. I've used music notation software for > note-by-note entry in the past, and it's a horrendous chore without some > dedicated keys to assist. You can use a MIDI (piano) keyboard for dedicating > keys to pitch entry, but you still need to use keys on the computer keyboard > for duration (quarter notes, eighth notes, dotted notes, etc) entry. This > used to be what the numeric keypad was dedicated to in Finale, and I guess it > still is. > > It's no use saying that Steve needs to consider whether users *have* a > numeric keypad. For users of music notation software that do a lot of note > entry, it more or less necessary to have the MIDI keyboard (or to suffer a > lot of pain), and it's not unreasonable to predict that such users might also > acquire a numeric keypad, if their Mac doesn't already have one. > > Such software has already established the precedent that it needs lots and > lots of keyboard shortcuts. (Finale is well over 10 years old, IIRC.) Steve > isn't condemning users to a keyboard shortcut nightmare, he's continuing a > well-established though specialized UI pattern. On this point I 100% agree > with Steve's right to continue the tradition without molestation. Finally, somebody that understands. Thanks for explaining it all. > 2. Cocoa doesn't do for shortcut display in menus what Carbon did, and Steve > thinks it should. On this point I 100% disagree with his position, or at > least his moral outrage. It might be that Cocoa doesn't implement what he's > asking for simply because no one asked before, in which case the > functionality may appear in the future. On the other hand, if Apple is > reluctant to sanction *generally* that apps should make a distinction between > numeric keys and numeric keypad keys, I think it's well within Apple's rights > to limit the scope of its own frameworks to match such guidelines. In that > case, I think Steve needs to quit whining that Apple engineers aren't doing > his job for him, and implement his own menu drawing for his specialized case. It's not that Apple isn't doing my job for me, it's that they're not doing their own job. Carbon had this ability. They didn't re-add it in Cocoa. That's what I'm complaining about. Apple killed Carbon and said "use Cocoa! It's amazing! Convert all your apps now!" That would be a whole lot easier if Cocoa offered everything that Carbon did. > 3. It's a question whether boxed numerals displayed in a menu are a > *discoverable* design for presenting numeric keypad shortcuts to the user. On > this issue, I tend to agree with the opinions expressed by Greg and Kyle that > there's really no discoverable approach that will educate users directly from > the menu appearance. (If this were on non-Mac computers, then a > representation like "Num 1" might be an acceptable solution, because non-Mac > numeric keypads have a "Num Lock" key, which gives the user a clue. But that > doesn't help with a Mac numeric keypad.) > > Under the circumstances, I think there's no good solution except directing > users to the documentation or help or tutorial which makes the connection > between the menu appearance and the corresponding keys. (Finale and similar > apps used to come with a quick-reference card that showed this sort of > information. I have no idea if it still does.) > > However, I don't see a problem in having a discussion on this issue. Someone > may come up with a clever idea that even Steve likes. Yes, if Apple comes up with better glyphs for numpad keys (and some of the others while they're at it), then that's all the better. Somewhere I recall seeing a little numpad icon beside the actual key character. Even that would be more obvious than a rounded rect around the character. -- Steve Mills office: 952-818-3871 home: 952-401-6255 cell: 612-803-6157 _______________________________________________ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
