On Jan 4, 2013, at 8:00 PM, Graham Cox <graham....@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/01/2013, at 1:08 PM, Andy Lee <ag...@mac.com> wrote:
> 
>> Put this all together and clearly the document view's visibleRect does not 
>> include any of the area occupied by the scroll bars.
>> 
>> But maybe I am answering the wrong question, in which case... never mind.
> 
> 
> I understood the question to mean what you thought as well.
> 
> But while the visibleRect does not include the area occupied by the scroll 
> bars, it will change according to whether the scroll bars are shown or 
> hidden. If they're hidden, the clip view expands to take up the room the 
> scrollbars used to occupy, and so the area of the content view gets larger, 
> along with the visibleRect. This must be true since more content is revealed 
> when scrollbars hide (otherwise why do it?).

Yup. The only thing I wonder about is the case where the user has chosen to 
have scrollbars visible only during scrolling. I don't use this mode myself, 
but I turned it on to have a look. It looks like in this mode, the clip view 
doesn't resize, and instead translucent scroll bars are drawn on top of it. No 
NSScrollers are added as subviews.

> That's my understanding. It would be easily verified with a simple test case.

Yeah, it seems to me it would be easy to test. I would assume the translucent 
scroll bars in this case don't affect the visible rect, but if it was important 
I would test. Anyway, the OP seems to feel he's figured out the answer he 
needed.

I also wonder about the "what are you really trying to do" part -- as you 
mentioned, scroll views already do clipping for you.

There's a couple of +contentSizeFor... class methods that might help. But at 
this point I don't have much more to add.

--Andy

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