Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

Richard Bush via CnC-List Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:12:58 -0700

 Riley, Ditto what David Risch said; Thank you; your explanation is the first 
thing I have read about lithium batteries that I understand and that makes 
sense! thanks again!
 
Richard
 s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C&C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 584;

Richard N. Bush Law Offices 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Risch via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: Stus-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: David Risch <davidrisc...@msn.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 1:52 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

Riley,    This was great worthy of printing 
and saving.  Thank you!    From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
To: Stus-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Della Barba, Joe <joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>; Riley Anderson 
<svfreighttr...@gmail.com>
Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?    Hi Joe and any others interested 
in this topic.    I install lithium batteries as my side job and after 
installing lithium on our 38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another 
half dozen boats, I can speak with some authority on this topic.    The risk of 
serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by properly 
installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit topology. Most 
people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is precisely why we 
hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.    Before diving into the details, you 
should be aware that in order to safely install lithium batteries on a boat, 
you need to buy top-quality gear that is compatible with the exact lithium 
chemistry of your batteries. Can you use an AGM charge profile from the old 
charger you have lying around? Sure, you may be willing to take more risks than 
others but this is not acceptable in a professional install and it also reduces 
the efficiency of your expensive batteries that you bought for their high 
efficiency in the first place! It is these "indirect" costs of making the 
lithium safe aboard that will dramatically increase the investment cost. Also, 
in order to take full advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be able to 
efficiently charge the system. This means a substantial solar array or very 
high output alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger 
pulleys).For the weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their season, 
these costs cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM technology.  
  My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring. 
This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of 
lithium.We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave, electric 
kettle, with enough excess power each day to either make 6 gallons of hot water 
through the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air conditioner on high for 5 hours 
through the night. We have all the luxuries of home and are never concerned 
about running out of power.     The details:    The Battleborn, Dakota, and 
Renogy batteries that advertise a "drop-in" replacement for lead-acid should 
never be used on a boat. These were designed for van-lifers who can pull over 
and escape if something goes horribly wrong.     The key with lithium is that 
you need to protect both your boat and its electronics and your substantial 
investment in batteries. Lithium batteries will not tolerate overcharging, this 
is where the fire risk comes in. On the other hand, over-discharging will not 
cause a fire risk but will destroy your battery. The "drop-in" replacement 
batteries "solve" this by disconnecting their terminals in the case of either 
overcharge or over-discharge. This is unacceptable on a boat for two reasons: 
1) most obviously, if you lose all DC power underway, you no longer have VHF, 
depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, radar, etc. 2) if the alternator is spinning 
but there is no battery to accept the charge, it will send unregulated voltage 
through the entire electrical system.    The proper way to install lithium 
involves implementing a dual-DC bus topology where all of the charge sources 
come into a single "charge bus" and all of the loads run on a separate "load 
bus". Victron Energy is the only company with off-the-shelf batteries and 
related components to implement such a system. Of course, the savy DIYer can 
build their own lithium banks and program a compatible battery management 
system to achieve a similar end result but this involves a serious appreciation 
for the nuances of lithium and circuitry design. Essentially, a battery 
management system (BMS) will both balance the individual cells in a battery and 
measure the voltage of each cell. If any single cell reaches its upper voltage 
threshold value, the BMS triggers a relay to disconnect the charge bus and 
prevent overcharging (keep in mind, there are other steps necessary to protect 
alternators, I'll come back to this later). If any cell reaches its lower 
voltage threshold, the BMS similarly triggers a relay disconnecting the load 
bus to prevent over-discharge. The separation of charge and load busses is 
critical as it allows the system to recover on its own. In the event of a 
low-voltage disconnect, the charge bus remains connected and the battery can 
recharge. In a high-voltage disconnect, the loads are still connected and can 
bring the battery back down to a safer voltage.    To charge lithium from an 
alternator, you need a lead-acid or AGM in between to act as a buffer (most 
commonly, this can be your starter battery). The alternator charges the lead 
battery. Connected to the lead battery is a DC-DC charger that is capable of 
three-stage charging with LiFePO4 charge profiles. This charger then runs into 
the charge bus mentioned above. TheVictron Energy Orion Smart charger is a 
great choice here (Bluetooth programmable and automatically detects when the 
engine is running so that you cannot drain the start battery).     The buffer 
battery protects both your boat's electronics from unregulated voltage in the 
event of a high-voltage disconnect and keeps your alternator from overheating. 
If you connect a 60 amp alternator to a 100 amp/hour lithium, the low internal 
resistance of the lithium will allow it to pull more amps than your alternator 
can keep up with. This will quickly burn out the alternator. Not to say that 
direct alternator charging of lithium can't be done, but it is usually cost 
prohibitive as the alternator needs to be extremely high output and have a 
sophisticated regulator designed for lithium.    The price:    Our lithium 
batteries, BMS, charge and load relays, shunt, wiring, bus bars, and monitoring 
computers and displays all in came to about $5000. This does not include the 
cost of solar charge controllers or panels, inverters, or alternator charging 
via DC-DC chargers. A 200 Amp-hour system could be done in the manner I 
outlined above with off-the-shelf parts and slightly less sophistication for 
around $3000. I hope this gives you and everyone else a good overview of what 
is involved in both the cost and installation.     After writing this all up I 
feel like I can justify a self-plug. As I said, I do installs and consults 
part-time. If you're interested in pursuing lithium and just want some guidance 
I'm happy to answer questions with no strings attached. If you want a more 
in-depth consultation or are in the southern New England area and want help 
with the install, my work is high quality and my rates are very reasonable!    
Feel free to get in touch,    Riley (860) 538 8446                         On 
Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 9:27 AM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
My batteries are about shot and I am thinking of going to lithium batteries. I 
have to say I thought I knew this stuff and it seems massively confusing with a 
ton of directly contradictory information. One big issue seems that if the BMS 
disconnects for any reason, that will do a lot of damage to your alternator and 
perhaps other equipment too. Add to that my regulator does not have a specific 
lithium setting, I would need to get into the custom menus and try and make 
one. What seems to be the best bet is just to connect the alternator to the 
start battery and use a DC-DC charger to charge the lithium bank. Some of them 
also take solar input, so that saves me buying a solar controller with lithium 
settings, which is something else I don’t currently have.   Joe Coquina Thanks 
to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs 
involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send 
contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

    --  Fair winds and following seas,    Charlotte Freeland & Riley Anderson 
SV Freight Train Middletown, CT USA Thanks to all of the subscribers that 
contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show 
your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

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