Alex; I've just started reading this e-mail string, so forgive me if what I am about to say has already been covered.
All of the prop manufacturers I've dealt with offer a way to get a recommendation for the proper prop size on their website. You provide the HP of your engine (and maybe the model and max torque information), the gear reduction (output RPM) and max engine speed, and information on the size/model/weight of the boat. They tell you which prop options would be optimal. For my 15,000 pound 38, with 36 hp diesel @3000 max RPM, and a 1.76:1 reduction Gori recommended a 16x10, Martec a 16x 10.5, and Flex-o-fold a 15x11 (each in 2-blade, I'd need to look for the 3-blade recommendations). On the face of it, 14x12 looks like a lot of prop. State of the art electric drives (using AC controllers or DC Pulse Width Modulation) used in industrial vehicles can be designed to produce max torque at under 10 RPM, but the torque produced generally declines as RPM increases. My 16x10.5 Martec is roughly equivalent to a 14x14, I'm told. It is handling about 300 ft-lbs of max torque at about 1300 prop RPM. (Torque load falls off above that point as you approach 3000 engine/1700 prop RPM). Don't know what the torque curve is for your electric drive, but I wonder if it might be unable to reach a high enough RPM before the torque load maxes out the RPM. If you've not done so already, I'd suggest that you talk to the folks at Martec (and the manufacturer of your electric drive) to get a prop recommendation. Rick Brass -----Original Message----- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alex Giannelia Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 2:00 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props FWIW, I had a 14x6 Martec at the end of an old WESTERBEKE 15HP diesel pushing/pulling my CC35-II in and out of the slip and only when facing a real tailwind backing out of my slip, did I have noticeable problems. So, for my new Electric motor, I dove in and bought a MARTEC 14X12 and will have to wait till spring to see if I go forward, sideways or backward. Cheers! Alex Giannelia CC 35-II 1974 to be renamed after re-launch TORONTO, Ontario ag@@airsensing.com -----Original Message----- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com Sent: October-21-13 12:00 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: CnC-List Digest, Vol 93, Issue 60 Send CnC-List mailing list submissions to cnc-list@cnc-list.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com You can reach the person managing the list at cnc-list-ow...@cnc-list.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of CnC-List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Folding/feathering Props (Steve Thomas) 2. Re: Folding/feathering Props (Paul Fountain) 3. Re: Folding/feathering Props (Jerome Tauber) 4. Re: Reply - Spar Crane (djhaug...@juno.com) 5. New Head and holding tank system. (djhaug...@juno.com) 6. Re: New Head and holding tank system. (Joel Aronson) 7. Re: New Head and holding tank system. (Jim Watts) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 08:18:29 -0400 From: Steve Thomas <sthom...@sympatico.ca> To: <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Message-ID: <blu0-smtp1852402267b7df525486a5bf...@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Sam, I found a used geared Gori for my 27 and it works fine in forward and reverse. I had hoped to find a 3 blade folder of some kind to minimise vibration but when I checked the manufacturers specifications there were none available in a small enough diameter. That was a few years ago so it might not be true now. Steve Thomas C&C27 MKIII -----Original Message----- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of sam.c.sal...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:02 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Good experiences; thanks for sharing. Looks like two or three endorsements for the Max Prop; about the same against the Martec; one for the Flexofold; ...and a Gori replacing a Martec! couple of questions: How big a deal is the maintenance on the Max Prop? Is it just a matter of greasing the prop every couple of years or is there more? - I pull the boat out of the lake every October; so it wouldn't be too much of a concern. I still have the old prop on the shaft. Am I correct in assuming that the taper is a standard SAE? I'm going to need to know for sure before I order. (Probably safer to remove the prop and measure for peace of mind!) Any more information / experiences / insights welcome. sam C&C 26. Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta ??On 10/20/2013 7:21 PM, Tim Goodyear wrote: Sam, I have a two blade Flex I Fold, which goes nicely forwards and backwards and replaced a 2 blade non-geared Martec that went sideways in reverse and sometimes went forward if the blades opened together (even after rebuilding). The two do not compare. Tim Mojito C&C 35-3 Branford, CT On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:10 PM, David Donnelly <da...@gnuattitude.ca> wrote: Sam I also have the 2 blade Martec and a 26. I have not found poor performance in reverse but I don't do it a bunch either. Can push just fine going forward. David Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message -------- From: Harry Hallgring <hhallgr...@icloud.com> Date: 10-20-2013 5:00 PM (GMT-07:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Sam, I have a two blade folding Martec prop that goes 7 kts forward and four kts directly sideways in reverse. Going with a Gori this winter. Harry Sent from my iPhone 6Beta On Oct 19, 2013, at 20:21, Sam Salter <sam.c.sal...@gmail.com> wrote: This winters project is a folding/feathering prop. I've just sent off inquiries to: Flexofold Max Prop Slipstream Anyone got any comments/observations/likes/dislikes. Any experience good or bad with any type of folding/feathering prop would be useful. Any other manufacturers recommended. Now is your chance to get in on a real sailing topic - folding/feathering props OR rum! sam :-) C&C 26 Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/d5 c5cc15/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 08:43:46 -0400 From: Paul Fountain <paul.fount...@sympatico.ca> To: <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Message-ID: <blu0-smtp19294b1e15e6255de912f397...@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Sam, Another vote for Flex-o-fold. Put a 2 blade on Perception after we repowered and love it, replaced a 3 blade Campbell Sailor ? and great in forward and reverse. From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of sam.c.sal...@gmail.com Sent: October-21-13 4:02 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Good experiences; thanks for sharing. Looks like two or three endorsements for the Max Prop; about the same against the Martec; one for the Flexofold; ...and a Gori replacing a Martec! couple of questions: How big a deal is the maintenance on the Max Prop? Is it just a matter of greasing the prop every couple of years or is there more? - I pull the boat out of the lake every October; so it wouldn't be too much of a concern. I still have the old prop on the shaft. Am I correct in assuming that the taper is a standard SAE? I'm going to need to know for sure before I order. (Probably safer to remove the prop and measure for peace of mind!) Any more information / experiences / insights welcome. sam C&C 26. Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta ??On 10/20/2013 7:21 PM, Tim Goodyear wrote: Sam, I have a two blade Flex I Fold, which goes nicely forwards and backwards and replaced a 2 blade non-geared Martec that went sideways in reverse and sometimes went forward if the blades opened together (even after rebuilding). The two do not compare. Tim Mojito C&C 35-3 Branford, CT On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:10 PM, David Donnelly <da...@gnuattitude.ca> wrote: Sam I also have the 2 blade Martec and a 26. I have not found poor performance in reverse but I don't do it a bunch either. Can push just fine going forward. David Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message -------- From: Harry Hallgring <hhallgr...@icloud.com> Date: 10-20-2013 5:00 PM (GMT-07:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Sam, I have a two blade folding Martec prop that goes 7 kts forward and four kts directly sideways in reverse. Going with a Gori this winter. Harry Sent from my iPhone 6Beta On Oct 19, 2013, at 20:21, Sam Salter <sam.c.sal...@gmail.com> wrote: This winters project is a folding/feathering prop. I've just sent off inquiries to: Flexofold Max Prop Slipstream Anyone got any comments/observations/likes/dislikes. Any experience good or bad with any type of folding/feathering prop would be useful. Any other manufacturers recommended. Now is your chance to get in on a real sailing topic - folding/feathering props OR rum! sam :-) C&C 26 Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/4d 92720a/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 09:41:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Jerome Tauber <jrtau...@aol.com> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Message-ID: <8d09c7a61a37ee2-718-2a...@webmail-m293.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" There is a new Kiwi company out of New Zeland making composite feathering props getting rave reviews. A friend put one on his Sweden 38 and says he gained a half knot under sail and power. Here is the contact info. Web site - http://www.kiwiprops.co.nz/cms/index.php, POSTAL ADDRESS: FACTORY LOCATION: Kiwi Feather Props Ltd 12 c Homestead Drive, Mt Wellington, AK 1072 PO Box 25-367 St Heliers Bay Auckland 1740, NEW ZEALAND email: Email Kiwiprops GMT + 12 hours Phone: +64 9 5757 975 Factory: +64 9 5745 606 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Thomas <sthom...@sympatico.ca> To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Sent: Mon, Oct 21, 2013 8:18 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Sam, I found a used geared Gori for my 27 and it works fine in forward and reverse. I had hoped to find a 3 blade folder of some kind to minimise vibration but when I checked the manufacturers specifications there were none available in a small enough diameter. That was a few years ago so it might not be true now. Steve Thomas C&C27 MKIII -----Original Message----- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of sam.c.sal...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:02 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Good experiences; thanks for sharing. Looks like two or three endorsements for the Max Prop; about the same against the Martec; one for the Flexofold; ...and a Gori replacing a Martec! couple of questions: How big a deal is the maintenance on the Max Prop? Is it just a matter of greasing the prop every couple of years or is there more? - I pull the boat out of the lake every October; so it wouldn't be too much of a concern. I still have the old prop on the shaft. Am I correct in assuming that the taper is a standard SAE? I'm going to need to know for sure before I order. (Probably safer to remove the prop and measure for peace of mind!) Any more information / experiences / insights welcome. sam C&C 26. Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta ??On 10/20/2013 7:21 PM, Tim Goodyear wrote: Sam, I have a two blade Flex I Fold, which goes nicely forwards and backwards and replaced a 2 blade non-geared Martec that went sideways in reverse and sometimes went forward if the blades opened together (even after rebuilding). The two do not compare. Tim Mojito C&C 35-3 Branford, CT On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:10 PM, David Donnelly <da...@gnuattitude.ca> wrote: Sam I also have the 2 blade Martec and a 26. I have not found poor performance in reverse but I don't do it a bunch either. Can push just fine going forward. David Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message -------- From: Harry Hallgring <hhallgr...@icloud.com> Date: 10-20-2013 5:00 PM (GMT-07:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props Sam, I have a two blade folding Martec prop that goes 7 kts forward and four kts directly sideways in reverse. Going with a Gori this winter. Harry Sent from my iPhone 6Beta On Oct 19, 2013, at 20:21, Sam Salter <sam.c.sal...@gmail.com> wrote: This winters project is a folding/feathering prop. I've just sent off inquiries to: Flexofold Max Prop Slipstream Anyone got any comments/observations/likes/dislikes. Any experience good or bad with any type of folding/feathering prop would be useful. Any other manufacturers recommended. Now is your chance to get in on a real sailing topic - folding/feathering props OR rum! sam :-) C&C 26 Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/9f ba6609/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:11:37 GMT From: "djhaug...@juno.com" <djhaug...@juno.com> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Reply - Spar Crane Message-ID: <20131021.111137.1822...@webmail-beta03.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Damien,How was your season? It was WAY too short! I just asked for a haul out today... Now we wait... I'm planning a new waste system installation this winter and I'm wonder how your boat is set up. Where the tank is, how it is piped, blah blah blah... I'm just looking for ideas in designing mine so, any pics would be awesome. I'll document my project. My handrails, traveler base and hatch boards came out really nice! I'd love to redo all the interior but it seems like quite and undertaking. If I were closer to the boat it would be different. It is the whole needing 8 coats, One coat per day, in the right temperatures that make it a difficult and time consuming process. If I could figure a way to keep the boat warm safely it would be great. Then Temp would not be an issue. Anyway the head is the priority right now. I hate the system in place currently... I googled you yacht club! That looks like a nice protected spot and very close to what looks like some g! reat sailing waters!! Hope all is well with you. Danny ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Damien Morrissey <morrissey.dam...@gmail.com> To: CnC-List@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Reply - Spar Crane Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 13:58:52 -0230 Our club, Bay of Islands YC in Corner Brook, Newfoundland has a dock side service crane with a capacity of about 1,200 lbs. �Members are free to use it as needed and most of us partner up with a few people to get our masts up or down each season. � �The club also has 2 front end loader tractors and a hydraulic trailer that launches or hauls out our boats as needed. � This is operated by our members and each of us have to sign a waiver against seeking damage compensation. � We each pay $130 per use for the tractor and trailer to take care of our boats. � Our club is looking into mandatory insurance on the boats. � It's crazy to think many of the boat owners do not carry insurance. � A lot of the club work is done by volunteers and that all helps to keep fees low. � We all get floating slips with power outlets and water taps. Damien -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/e7 1f36a2/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:27:59 GMT From: "djhaug...@juno.com" <djhaug...@juno.com> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List New Head and holding tank system. Message-ID: <20131021.112759.1822...@webmail-beta03.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Okay guys, I'm planning a new waste system. I'm going with the Raritan PHC head and a new holding tank. I currently have a very old Jabsco head and a bladder holding tank. I really don't like the bladder. It has worked okay but, one day it will fail and it will be disgusting! I just want rid of it... I'm looking for ideas on the design. i.e. Where to install the tank and how to pipe it. I've been reading and I was thinking to try and install about a 16-18 gallon tank, that conforms to the hull, behind the head. However, after a closer look on Saturday, I'm not sure there is enough room there. I was kind of hoping to install it there in order to pipe up a gravity drain for when I'm in an area where that is possible. This would also keep the hose runs very short and I could easily vent and pipe the pump-out fitting in the side deck above. Of course that would have the need of piping up hill to get into the tank and make it a bit harder to clear the waste from the ho! se with every flush. Then I heard it might be better to have the waste run downhill to the tank. That would create the need of pumping overboard if I were in an area that allowed it and the need of another pump. I'm not exactly sure how the pump-out system works when having it done at a pump-out station. Is it a fitting that attaches to the deck fitting and sucks it up the hose or, do they run a smaller hose down into the tank and suck it directly out with their hose? Anyway, As always, any and all advice, insights and colorful comments are appreciated! DannyLolita1973 Viking 33Westport Point, MA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/fb a3f90f/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:36:32 -0400 From: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com> To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List New Head and holding tank system. Message-ID: <CAEL16P-QkEApO-54hSL-j=67bu+pgrVfO=g7al4sqe9bjm_...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Danny, Good luck! >From the head - discharge hose to Y valve. One branch to a thru-hull, >one to the tank. The one to the tank needs a loop in it so it is above the water line at all times. The pump out connection is at the bottom of the tank and runs to a deck fitting. The pump-out fitting sits the marinas use inside the lip of the deck fitting and sucks out everything from there. The head will do all the work, no other pumps needed. Where are you going that discharge is legal? Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:27 AM, djhaug...@juno.com <djhaug...@juno.com>wrote: > Okay guys, > > I'm planning a new waste system. I'm going with the Raritan PHC head > and a new holding tank. I currently have a very old Jabsco head and a > bladder holding tank. I really don't like the bladder. It has worked > okay but, one day it will fail and it will be disgusting! I just want rid of it... > > I'm looking for ideas on the design. i.e. Where to install the tank > and how to pipe it. I've been reading and I was thinking to try and > install about a 16-18 gallon tank, that conforms to the hull, behind the head. > However, after a closer look on Saturday, I'm not sure there is > enough room there. I was kind of hoping to install it there in order > to pipe up a gravity drain for when I'm in an area where that is > possible. This would also keep the hose runs very short and I could > easily vent and pipe the pump-out fitting in the side deck above. > > Of course that would have the need of piping up hill to get into the > tank and make it a bit harder to clear the waste from the hose with every flush. > Then I heard it might be better to have the waste run downhill to the > tank. That would create the need of pumping overboard if I were in an > area that allowed it and the need of another pump. > > I'm not exactly sure how the pump-out system works when having it done > at a pump-out station. Is it a fitting that attaches to the deck > fitting and sucks it up the hose or, do they run a smaller hose down > into the tank and suck it directly out with their hose? > > Anyway, As always, any and all advice, insights and colorful comments > are appreciated! > > Danny > Lolita > 1973 Viking 33 > Westport Point, MA > > _______________________________________________ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > -- Joel 301 541 8551 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/5d b69321/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 08:41:21 -0700 From: Jim Watts <paradigmat...@gmail.com> To: 1 CnC List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List New Head and holding tank system. Message-ID: <ca+jz0fcaazkf9kp279qwtfrvdko8_uzdps0+gif016snshr...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Pump-out fittings are a friction fit with the deck outlet. They scare the hell out of me. The last one I used, the previous user had turned the open/close lever at the business end to close before turning the pump off. This left the hose full of waste up to the shutoff. When I cracked the valve to pump out our tank, there was some seriously explosive decompression and somebody else's * stuff* flew everywhere. I'm glad I don't have to use pumpouts very often, overboard discharge is still legal most places in Canada; I still make sure it's deep, fast-flowing water far from land. On 21 October 2013 08:27, djhaug...@juno.com <djhaug...@juno.com> wrote: > Okay guys, > > I'm planning a new waste system. I'm going with the Raritan PHC head > and a new holding tank. I currently have a very old Jabsco head and a > bladder holding tank. I really don't like the bladder. It has worked > okay but, one day it will fail and it will be disgusting! I just want rid of it... > > I'm looking for ideas on the design. i.e. Where to install the tank > and how to pipe it. I've been reading and I was thinking to try and > install about a 16-18 gallon tank, that conforms to the hull, behind the head. > However, after a closer look on Saturday, I'm not sure there is > enough room there. I was kind of hoping to install it there in order > to pipe up a gravity drain for when I'm in an area where that is > possible. This would also keep the hose runs very short and I could > easily vent and pipe the pump-out fitting in the side deck above. > > Of course that would have the need of piping up hill to get into the > tank and make it a bit harder to clear the waste from the hose with every flush. > Then I heard it might be better to have the waste run downhill to the > tank. That would create the need of pumping overboard if I were in an > area that allowed it and the need of another pump. > > I'm not exactly sure how the pump-out system works when having it done > at a pump-out station. Is it a fitting that attaches to the deck > fitting and sucks it up the hose or, do they run a smaller hose down > into the tank and suck it directly out with their hose? > > Anyway, As always, any and all advice, insights and colorful comments > are appreciated! > > Danny > Lolita > 1973 Viking 33 > Westport Point, MA > > _______________________________________________ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com > > -- Jim Watts Paradigm Shift C&C 35 Mk III Victoria, BC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20131021/f3 69b7e5/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ CnC-List mailing list CnC-List@cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ------------------------------ End of CnC-List Digest, Vol 93, Issue 60 **************************************** _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
