We cannot prevent people pulling their hairs and getting bald with dependency management if they wish to do so.
Now if you say that Maven is not mainstream, hampers Java projects and should be ditched that's a discussion for a different mailing list. Leiningen brings simplicity on top of Maven so you can have some hairs to brush the following morning. It leverages what exists already in the Java dependency management world. It did not choose to impose Maven to developers. You can still use NetBeans or Eclipse to code in Java without the help (?!) of Maven. You can still code in Clojure with a bare bone text editor and the REPL. It all depends on the complexity of your software and it's size. However you are right, Clojure may never get mainstream, people in general are against simplicity. They make choices that make their lives impossible and can't see that they feel miserable because of their own decisions. I chose to live the other way around a long time ago. Choosing Clojure and Leiningen is part of that principle, avoid dictator ship by the masses. I wish I had the guts of Rich at his age to step down and say "enough". Not sure I would have created something as coherent as Clojure. It's entirely up to you to live with hairy dependency problems if you wish so. Choose your own hell, use Maven as-is, Ant or even manage you dependencies by hand with -cp .... when starting the JVM. Luc P. On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 01:23:08 +0100 JAX <jayunit...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm all for simplifying clojure. > Even if Lein is great... If clojure is heavily biased and saddled by > yet another framework/build system , it will never go mainstream. > > Jay Vyas > MMSB > UCHC MMSB ? Multiple Microcontroller Support Board ? UCHC ? Upper Canada Hockey Club Duh ? > > On Jul 29, 2011, at 12:32 AM, clojure+nore...@googlegroups.com wrote: > > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/topics > > > > format and printf can't be used with BigInt [2 Updates] > > clojure.contrib.command-line [2 Updates] > > Java 7 is out! [1 Update] > > Problem with ClojureScript and Node.js [2 Updates] > > better community docs: getting started [1 Update] > > dynamically generated let bindings [1 Update] > > Pair Coding over Skype [1 Update] > > passing value to functions [1 Update] > > Libraries and build management hell [3 Updates] > > Topic: format and printf can't be used with BigInt > > Sean Corfield <seancorfi...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:28PM -0700 ^ > > > > >> Chas has already pointed you at the rationale / discussion but > > >> I'm a > > > Discussions about primitive arithmetic, not BigInteger arithmetic. > > > > I take it you didn't actually bother to read the page he linked to? > > Let me quote the relevant part for you since I know how averse you > > are to spending any time reading more than the first few lines of > > any material that people link to: > > > > * new clojure.lang.BigInt class > > * BigInts do not auto-reduce, and are contagious (akin to doubles) > > * BigInts will enable optimizations when fits in long > > * optimzations not yet in place > > * unlike BigInteger, BigInt has consistent hashcodes with Long, > > through range of long > > > > > That'd be my position, yes. Also, backward compatibility: format > > > works in 1.2 with (* 400000000000 400000000000 400000000000) so > > > it should work in 1.3 with (* 400000000000 400000000000 > > > 400000000000). > > > > Kinda hard since that expression is not valid in 1.3 anyway: > > > > ArithmeticException integer overflow > > clojure.lang.Numbers.throwIntOverflow (Numbers.java:1374) > > > > So that code breaks explicitly in 1.3 and in many ways (format) is > > then the least of your worries... > > > > >> Might be worth opening a JIRA ticket for enhancing format, yes? > > > You go ahead. I don't have an account there. > > > > Ah, that's right... the contributor process is too much work for > > you... Maybe one of the kind souls who've taken the time to go thru > > that process might feel inclined to open such a ticket for you? If > > they agree with your position, of course. > > -- > > Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN > > An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ > > World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/ > > Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/ > > > > "Perfection is the enemy of the good." > > -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) > > > > > > Sean Corfield <seancorfi...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:30PM -0700 ^ > > > > I think one of the authors / core members needs to change the > > permissions. I have edit access on the parent page > > http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Enhanced+Primitive+Support and > > the sibling page http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Bit+Operations > > but, like you, don't have view access to the Numerics page. > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > Topic: clojure.contrib.command-line > > octopusgrabbus <octopusgrab...@gmail.com> Jul 28 03:37PM -0700 ^ > > > > Are there any command-line examples or documentation other than > > what's up on clojure.org or ClojureDocs? > > > > I'm using > > > > (defn -main [& args] > > (with-command-line args > > "Get csv file name" > > [[in-file-name ".csv input file name" "resultset.csv" ]] > > [[in-file-name ".csv input file name" 1]] > > > > (println "in-file-name:", in-file-name) > > > > If I specify a file name it does not get used. Only resultset.csv is > > used. > > > > tnx > > cmn > > > > > > Anthony Grimes <disciplera...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:24PM -0700 ^ > > > > command-line is deprecated in favor of tools.cli now. > > http://github.com/clojure/tools.cli > > > > > > Topic: Java 7 is out! > > Sean Corfield <seancorfi...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:14PM -0700 ^ > > > > > So, what does it means for Clojure? > > > > It's not going to mean anything for a long time. Clojure still > > supports Java 5 so it is probably going to be years before Java 7 is > > mainstream enough that Clojure can _require_ it. > > -- > > Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN > > An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ > > World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/ > > Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/ > > > > "Perfection is the enemy of the good." > > -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) > > > > > > Topic: Problem with ClojureScript and Node.js > > Anthony Grimes <disciplera...@gmail.com> Jul 28 03:32PM -0700 ^ > > > > I'm all of a sudden getting this exact same error on OS X 10.6.8. > > And I do mean all of a sudden. I actually updated to this version > > of OS X last night and today it isn't working. Is this happening to > > any OS X users on an older Snow Leopard? This is the only thing > > that has changed in my setup, so I'm actually starting to wonder if > > it might have something to do with that. > > > > Anthony Grimes <disciplera...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:10PM -0700 ^ > > > > Actually, it seems to be caused by this > > commit: > > https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/954e8529b1ec814f40af77d6035f90e93a9126ea > > > > If I checkout before that, everything is peachy. I guess I'll > > submit a bug report. > > > > > > Topic: better community docs: getting started > > uMany <elm...@gmail.com> Jul 28 03:57PM -0700 ^ > > > > I'm a total newbie with Clojure/Lisp/Java/Cake/Lein/Emacs etc. > > But I want to help translating to Spanish. > > If you tell me where can I find instructions to do it I will with > > pleasure. > > > > By the way, I've been fighting with Emacs/Clojure and everything > > else. It has been frustrating but I've learn a lot and I like to > > learn. So for me, I don't give up. I wont give up. I just want to > > program in Clojure no matter what just because I like it. > > > > Manuel > > > > > > > > Topic: dynamically generated let bindings > > Sam Aaron <samaa...@gmail.com> Jul 28 11:48PM +0100 ^ > > > > Hi there, > > > > I'm trying to create a fn which does the following: > > > > * returns a fn which takes an arbitrary number of args > > * calls a helper fn, passing the incoming args returning a vector > > of alternating symbols and vals > > * creates a let form using the vector of alternating symbols and > > vals returned by the helper fn as the bindings > > * contains some inner form that makes use of the bindings > > > > i.e. is it possible to implement something that allows the > > following to work: > > (defn binding-vec > > [args] > > ['size (count args)]) > > > > (defn mk-dynamically-bound-fn > > [form] > > ;; returns a fn with sign [& args] which > > ;; uses binding-vec to create a the vec for > > ;; which a let statement binds around form > > ) > > > > (def a (mk-dynamically-bound-fn '(+ size 10))) > > > > (a 1 2 3 4) ;=> 14 (the number of args + 10) > > > > > > Please let me know if I'm being a bit crazy with the question. It's > > totally possible that I'm barking up the wrong tree with this line > > of enquiry. Sam > > > > --- > > http://sam.aaron.name > > > > > > Topic: Pair Coding over Skype > > nil <ache...@gmail.com> Jul 28 02:37PM -0700 ^ > > > > Until you find someone, one site you can look at is the clojure > > euler site. It has some math examples written by folks who know > > clojure to varying degrees. You can see different ways of tackling > > a given problem. > > > > > > > > Topic: passing value to functions > > Tuba Lambanog <tuba.lamba...@gmail.com> Jul 28 03:32PM -0600 ^ > > > > Hi, Laurent, > > > > Your suggestion of manually piping intermediate results works. > > Thank you very much! > > > > Tuba > > > > > > > > Topic: Libraries and build management hell > > Michal B <mibu.cloj...@gmail.com> Jul 28 02:23PM -0700 ^ > > > > Why does it have to be so complicated to use libraries? > > > > To use libraries, you need to learn how to operate half a dozen > > build tools and git because each library author distributes their > > library differently. If figuring out how to install an IDE with > > clojure wasn't bad enough, now you need to figure out how to > > install and use each of the tools with it. > > I'm not saying build tools are useless, on the contrary. It's just > > that most of the time, we want to sling two or three libraries > > together and code. Right? There is no need to start a project with > > a bunch of template files and an elaborate directory structure and > > to start configuring dependencies and to rely on some magic > > happening that makes your program run. > > I think we over-engineered the build process to support the big > > projects and forgot the common case. Most projects are simple. > > > > Let's remove this incidental complexity by returning to simplicity. > > Keep the build tools for the heavyweights and get back in touch > > with your libraries. > > Instead of having a complicated installation guide for your > > library, have a Download section in your site. Have there a link to > > the latest stable version of your library as a jar file or, if > > necessary, a zip file with your jar and and all the necessary > > dependency jars (sane library authors won't mind). For a zip, > > shortly describe what's in it - library names and versions, and > > links to their sites. That's it. > > I think most JVM users know or can quickly figure out how to take > > jars and put them in their project's classpath. It's simple to do > > with all IDEs (or without one) and there is no need to learn or > > install additional software or edit configuration files. Starter > > scripts should include in the classpath all jars in the current > > directory or jars/ directory by default. > > Instead of managing libraries inside a dependencies file, you do it > > directly with the jar files. If the project gets too big, bring in > > the build tools. > > What are your thoughts on this issue? > > > > > > Timothy Baldridge <tbaldri...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:30PM -0500 ^ > > > > > Why does it have to be so complicated to use libraries? > > > > I used to think it was hard until I read up on lein. Can't get much > > simpler than clojars and lein: > > > > http://clojars.org/ > > http://alexott.net/en/clojure/ClojureLein.html > > > > Now I'm starting to think that I actually like the lein method over > > python easy_install or ruby gems. > > > > Timothy > > > > > > -- > > “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was > > that–lacking zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination > > of their C programs.” > > (Robert Firth) > > > > > > gaz jones <gareth.e.jo...@gmail.com> Jul 28 04:31PM -0500 ^ > > > > i would agree with all that if i were writing plain java (a lib dir > > for dependencies and a couple of shell scripts for building etc), > > but leiningen makes it so easy for clojure that its more work _not_ > > to use it... at least that has been my experience. > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient > > with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > -- Luc P. ================ The rabid Muppet -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
