While I agree that clear steps should be provided to assist newcomers, I don't have sympathy for newcomers more interested in bashing other languages and people than in actually learning something.
I started learning clojure over a year ago and I don't recall any issues getting started. I fired up a REPL almost immediately. Other things were more difficult but I figured that's part of the learning process. Frankly, I'm a little annoyed by people who want to blame everyone else if something new is not immediately obvious to them. On Mar 28, 5:51 am, Lee Spector <lspec...@hampshire.edu> wrote: > On Mar 28, 2011, at 5:16 AM, Luc Prefontaine wrote: > > > Given the huge number of libraries/projects available these days > > and the diverse profile of library maintainers, a totally > > automated/transparent > > dependency manager is not for today. It would require a crystal ball to cope > > with a number of situations. > > > That "garbage" has to be dealt with in day to day use by most of us. > > You should get used to it or live as an hermit on some far away mountain. > > Which I am tempted to do from time to time but for real bureaucratic > > issues like income tax reports :) > > > Life can be hard... > > Luc's response here and also Shantanu's on the same thread have inspired me > to coin a new word, "FANPERV," for someone who Fails to Appreciate the > Newbie's PERspectiVe. > > Fanpervs typically make two moves in response to confused newbies: > > 1. Explain (correctly) why the perfect solution requires complexity, and then > assert (incorrectly) that newbies (and others with simple needs) should or > must deal with that complexity from the start. > > 2. Provide a (correct) solution to the newbie's problem while asserting > (incorrectly) that the solution is simple or obvious, thereby implying that > nobody should bother to provide a truly simple or obvious solution to future > newbies. > > Fanpervs are often really smart and hard-working and kind and well > intentioned, but for some reason or another -- probably usually because they > know too much -- they just don't see how the newbies see things. > > In the present discussion I don't think that newbies are asking for "totally > automated/transparent dependency management" but rather for a way to avoid > the issue entirely for simple projects that just use core and contrib (yes > that can be a challenge if you're new to java classpaths, and for many other > languages it's simpler because you just have to put the library in the same > directory as your source code) or maybe a few other libraries that they could > just download (yes that can be a challenge e.g. if the library's instructions > just say how to do it from lein but you're using some other dependency > management system because you want a Clojure-aware editor that doesn't > require you to go down an emacs configuration and learning-curve rabbit hole). > > I guess maybe I'm not quite a newbie any more, but for whatever reason -- > maybe just a thick skull -- I still have the newbie perspective and I totally > sympathize with people who are exasperated with the process of setting up a > basic Clojure programming environment. As I said before I think there are > several projects that get the newbie 90% of the way there, but the last 10% > can be rough. I know that there are many on this list who could provide 100% > solutions but perhaps haven't done so because they have fanpervish > tendencies... But I think that these can be overcome, if people realize that > there is really an issue here. > > -Lee -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
