"But with any other language I've ever used, at most I include a library I need in a directive at the top, or I include my own code in a similar directive. For instance, with Erlang you just say "module(whatever)" at the top. I mean, that's ALL you do. "
This is what the poster expects. So much for "not asking for a totally transparent solution"... I remember an environment meeting the above expectations many years ago were the linker would use missing references by itself and automatically add necessary libraries. There was only a single drawback. A developer seat cost was around 20,000$ US. Single vendor, absolute mouse trap. The simple answer (your # 1) was already provided by Shantanu. Install Eclipse and CCW and you can start simple Clojure projects. No immediate dependency issues until you need something from Clojar. Clearly the above did not ring a bell. Hence the expectancy reset. Learn to live with it because there will not be a solution as simple as the one you expect in the near future. So much for FANPERV.. We should call this FAMUNE (FAilure to Meet Unrealistic Newbie's Expectations :) Luc On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:51:18 -0400 Lee Spector <lspec...@hampshire.edu> wrote: > > On Mar 28, 2011, at 5:16 AM, Luc Prefontaine wrote: > > > Given the huge number of libraries/projects available these days > > and the diverse profile of library maintainers, a totally > > automated/transparent dependency manager is not for today. It would > > require a crystal ball to cope with a number of situations. > > > > That "garbage" has to be dealt with in day to day use by most of us. > > You should get used to it or live as an hermit on some far away > > mountain. Which I am tempted to do from time to time but for real > > bureaucratic issues like income tax reports :) > > > > Life can be hard... > > Luc's response here and also Shantanu's on the same thread have > inspired me to coin a new word, "FANPERV," for someone who Fails to > Appreciate the Newbie's PERspectiVe. > > Fanpervs typically make two moves in response to confused newbies: > > 1. Explain (correctly) why the perfect solution requires complexity, > and then assert (incorrectly) that newbies (and others with simple > needs) should or must deal with that complexity from the start. > > 2. Provide a (correct) solution to the newbie's problem while > asserting (incorrectly) that the solution is simple or obvious, > thereby implying that nobody should bother to provide a truly simple > or obvious solution to future newbies. > > Fanpervs are often really smart and hard-working and kind and well > intentioned, but for some reason or another -- probably usually > because they know too much -- they just don't see how the newbies see > things. > > In the present discussion I don't think that newbies are asking for > "totally automated/transparent dependency management" but rather for > a way to avoid the issue entirely for simple projects that just use > core and contrib (yes that can be a challenge if you're new to java > classpaths, and for many other languages it's simpler because you > just have to put the library in the same directory as your source > code) or maybe a few other libraries that they could just download > (yes that can be a challenge e.g. if the library's instructions just > say how to do it from lein but you're using some other dependency > management system because you want a Clojure-aware editor that > doesn't require you to go down an emacs configuration and > learning-curve rabbit hole). > > I guess maybe I'm not quite a newbie any more, but for whatever > reason -- maybe just a thick skull -- I still have the newbie > perspective and I totally sympathize with people who are exasperated > with the process of setting up a basic Clojure programming > environment. As I said before I think there are several projects that > get the newbie 90% of the way there, but the last 10% can be rough. I > know that there are many on this list who could provide 100% > solutions but perhaps haven't done so because they have fanpervish > tendencies... But I think that these can be overcome, if people > realize that there is really an issue here. > > -Lee > -- Luc P. ================ The rabid Muppet -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
