alux <alu...@googlemail.com> wrote .. > Hello Luc, > > what you say is of course completely true. Nevertheless it seems true > for Scala too. And now I come with a new language again. The curious > people in my team (well, or its the one with enough spare time :) > already had some look into Scala, and I think I need additional > arguments make them to look into Clojure too. > > But here I'm on a slippery slope. I'm still unable to judge the power > of lisp macros compared to the power of Scalas possibilities to write > your own control structures.
I cannot help you much here. I looked at Scala nearly two years ago while searching for a JVM alternative to Java. I already knew Lisp and wanted a generic macro facility but I was not convinced by Scala even before looking at its extensibility features... sorry. Too OOish for me, I was starting to have skin rashes about the OO approach by then after 7 years of exposure to Java and the Russian puppet syndrome :))) Luc > > Regards, alux > > On 8 Sep., 19:29, Alan <a...@malloys.org> wrote: > > This was actually the article that finally got me to overcome the > > inertia and start exploring lisp, as a long-time native Java speaker. > > I gave up again in a few weeks, but the possibilities excited me, and > > when I found Clojure I was delighted with the number of things that > > were better than lisp, as well as the things better than Java. > > > > After just two weeks of working with lisp, when I went to write my > > next Java app, I was flabbergasted to discover that there is no (map). > > You might want to show them how simple it becomes to process sequences > > with map/reduce/etc - that was a huge revelation for me. > > > > On Sep 8, 2:59 am, Joop Kiefte <iko...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Actually, this metaphor has been used before. Checkhttp://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.htmlforan > other version of > > > your story ;). > > > > > 2010/9/8 alux <alu...@googlemail.com>: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I still try to read my way through Paul Grahams "On Lisp", and always > > > > think how to motivate this stuff to my fellow Java people. How do I > > > > describe what it is all about in this "Code is Data", and "Macros let > > > > you grow your own language towards the problem" stuff? > > > > [Why? Well, maybe I read to much of Paul Grahams texts. So my current > > > > working hypothesis is that this is the one big strength of Lisp that > > > > other languages still dont have - so if I want to motivate people to > > > > learn a Lisp, I have to at least point to it.] > > > > > > Short answer: Difficult. ;-) > > > > > > Especially if I find formulations like > > > > "You can have the language which suits your program, even if it ends > > > > up looking quite different from Lisp." > > > > > > Longer Answer: > > > > > > What puzzles me most about this quoted formulation is the words > > > > "different from Lisp", as I know: All my Java collegues see > > > > Lisp=Parentheses. So, to them, PGs formulation is even misleading. To > > > > them it doesn't look quite different at the end. > > > > > > Thus I try to come up with a metaphor, and I want to discuss it here, > > > > in the hope I don't tell them rubbish at the end. > > > > > > I want to liken XML to Lisp data. Then, with XSLT, some XML structures > > > > are actually programs. Programs that work on XML data. The Lisp > > > > parentheses are just like the basic XML syntax - elements, tags, > > > > attributes. Obviousely Lisp has a much simpler syntax, but its trees > > > > anyway. So XSLT can be likened to Lisp macros then. > > > > > > And the use of it? Well, I currently want to talk to some people who > > > > use Maven a lot. So the example I came up with is: > > > > Think about when you had Ant, some years ago. Ant is just a > > > > programming language for Java builds. > > > > After a while you recognise that it'd be better to have something that > > > > describes the project declaratively, with opinionated defaults. Well, > > > > after some discussions you define something called pom.xml, that does > > > > this (congratulation, we just invented Maven). Immediately you see > > > > that all these Ant build scripts mentioned above could be generated > > > > from this Maven pom.xml. So you might write XSLT to do so (this of > > > > course deviates from historical truth). Some step later, you don't > > > > generate them anymore as files; the only needed file is the pom.xml, > > > > and the transformations of course. > > > > > > So XML and XSLT are data and code, and they can do something that is > > > > a) similar to what Lisp macros do, and > > > > b) this is something my collegues understand. > > > > > > Hopefully. > > > > > > So, coming back to Paul Grahams quote, what the beginners see is: It > > > > was XML and stays XML. The things "looking quite different" are, in > > > > this metaphor, the XML schema of the Maven pom.xml versus the XML > > > > scheme of the Ant files. > > > > > > I hope that they will understand the power; and agree they will never > > > > try and do this in XSLT. The Lisp syntax is just simple enough to be > > > > usable for such tasks. > > > > > > So, now you probably understand why I ask this question here, even if > > > > it is a general Lisp question. This may be the only group where people > > > > understand Lisp and Macros, XML/XSLT, and Ant, and Maven ;-) > > > > > > Now the question: > > > > Do you see any problems with this metaphor, is it misleading > > > > somewhere? > > > > > > Thank you, alux > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > > > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > > > > your > first post. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > > > -- > > > Linux-user #496644 (http://counter.li.org) - first touch of linux in 2004 > > > > > Demandoj en aŭ pri Esperanto? Questions about Esperanto? Vragen over > > > Esperanto? Perguntas sobre o Esperanto? -http://demandoj.tk > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first > post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
