Re: ANN: jedi-time 0.1.4

dimitris Sun, 09 Feb 2020 13:46:52 -0800

Hi again Sean and folks,

I've had another stub at this, mostly by flattening the model but alsoby separating navigation from query/comparing/formatting etc. Mostdatafied representations are now navigable on their keys (returningeither a Java object or some base value), and some on certain extra keys.

I believe this version will play much nicer with REBL, and all thewrapper style fns now live in `jedi-time.datafied` namespace andbacked-by `jedi-time.protocols`. In other words, navigation is nowpurely for traversing the graph - everything else has its own protocol.

Unfortunately, now Instant can't really navigate to anything interesting(it falls back to data navigation via `get`).

I would be very interested in feedback on the new approach (git-sha:8e756ecb71bbfa0b081e00d71a21c47037f1eae4). If anything, it separatesnavigation from the other capabilities, and makes sure that there isalways a navigation path to either upgrade (by making assumptions), ordowngrade (by losing information) your datafied representation .


As always, thanks in advance...

Dimitris


On 09/02/2020 19:35, Sean Corfield wrote:

Yes, I agree with all of that I think.

For nested navigation, consider that (get-in data [:year :month) isequivalent to (get data :month (get data :year)) so you could nav onestep at a time. Calling nav (& then datafy) on the intermediate stepswould just bring you back to the data world at the same point as theinner (top-level) get in that case.

nav-in would be a strange operation since it would need to call datafyafter each step to get the arguments needed for the next nav call.REBL provides nav-> which does this behind the scenes while it isthreading data through the pipeline of nav operations (so there is aprecedent).

Even with an equivalent to nav-in (or nav->) I think that usingdatafy/nav on Java Time objects may be an incomplete mapping -- andprobably somewhat hard to work with. When you first posted, I was morefocused on the confusion using non-core datafy/nav would be andinterop with REBL -- I didn't look too deep into the _actual_navigation you were proposing, sorry.

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 1:19 AM dimitris <jimpil1...@gmail.com<mailto:jimpil1...@gmail.com>> wrote:


    Hi Sean,

    I'm back home and trying to understand/internalize
    this...Unfortunately, this kind of (flat & arg-less) navigation is
    not going to be very useful for the majority of java.time
    (datafied) objects. That is for two reasons... First of all the
    datafied maps I'm returning are nested. This means that for
    example to get to the `YearMonth` object, you would need to
    navigate to the [:year :month] path, and in the absence of
    `nav-in` this is somewhat awkward. Secondly, most of the
    interesting/useful conversions (in the context of date-times),
    almost always requires some sort of argument (e.g. `Instant` to
    `LocalDateTime`), and so if the last arg to `nav` has to be either
    nil (for missing keys), or match the actual value in the map, then
    there is no room left for arguments.

    It is true that I'm probably trying to do too much with `nav`, but
    now that I'm understanding its purpose better, I get the feeling
    that it's not going to be as useful as I originally thought (in
    the context of this lib). Yes, I can pull all the clever stuff
    into distinct functions, but ultimately for `nav` to be useful I
    would have to either:

    1. Change the datafied representation to something flat, OR

    2. accept that navigating to pure data (via `get-in`) will be done
    with real paths (e.g. `[:year :month]`), whereas navigating to
    objects (via `nav`) will be done with bogus keys (e.g.
    `:month-of-year`).

    As things stand (with my current nested representation), only
    LocalDate, LocalDateTime, OffsetDateTime & ZonedDateTime can have
    useful navigations:

    - LocalDate => :week-day , :year-month

    - LocalDateTime => :local-date, :local-time

    - OffsetDateTime => :local-datetime, :instant

    - ZonedDateTime => :offset-datetime, :local-datetime, :instant

    That is pretty much it in terms of `nav`...

    Does that make (more) sense?


    Many thanks in advance...

    Dimitris

    ps:  Sean I can be on slack but with my work email


    On 04/02/2020 05:18, Sean Corfield wrote:

    You're misunderstanding me. I'll try again.

    I'm not saying you can't navigate to keys that don't exist in the
    data -- but since there would be no corresponding value, the nav
    call would be (nav coll k nil) essentially.

    If (get coll k) produces some value v, then (nav coll k v) will
    take you from the right side (pure data) to the left side
    (objects) to the object that "corresponds" to the equivalent
    navigation on the right (i.e., within the data).

    object -> datafy -> pure data
    pure data -> get etc -> new pure data
    pure data -> nav -> new object "corresponding" to new pure data

    On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 3:38 AM Dimitrios Jim Piliouras
    <jimpil1...@gmail.com <mailto:jimpil1...@gmail.com>> wrote:

        This is what I've done but it contradicts what we said
        earlier...

        If I navigate to some existing key and it gives me back a
        Java object, then it means that the datafied representation
        had a key pointing to non data!

        I have read your blog post multiple times ;), but I think the
        situation you're describing  with the foreign keys is rather
        unique...

        The datafied datetime cannot possibly include all its
        possible formats, nor all the possible alternatives - that
        would be extremely wasteful and meaningless the way I see it.


        Let's take an Instant as an example...it datafies to map of
        two keys (:epoch, :second). Does it make sense to add a
        :format-iso key in there pointing to a String? Is there any
        point navigating to that key? Is there any point navigating
        to :epoch or :second? The answer is no, right? Is there a
        point in navigating to :zoned-datetime given a zone id? I
        would think yes...

        On Mon, 3 Feb 2020, 04:47 Sean Corfield, <s...@corfield.org
        <mailto:s...@corfield.org>> wrote:

            Think of it as a square:

            You start with an object of some sort (left side) ->
            datafy -> turns it into pure Clojure data (including
            metadata). (right side)

            Given pure Clojure data, you can navigate through it with
            get etc and you stay in the right side (pure data).

            Given that pure Clojure data, you can navigate back to
            the left hand wide with nav, mimicking how get etc work.

            So datafy is L -> R, get is R -> R, nav is R -> L on a
            "diagonal" that takes you back to the object world on the
            left, corresponding to the place on the right that you'd
            get to via get etc.

            See if this blog post helps
            https://corfield.org/blog/2018/12/03/datafy-nav/

            On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 1:22 AM Dimitrios Jim Piliouras
            <jimpil1...@gmail.com <mailto:jimpil1...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                Hi Sean,

                Admittedly, I’ve never used REBL, and I did struggle
                with the shape and name of the `nav` arguments...

                In particular I’m struggling to understand why would
                anyone use `nav` to navigate to a key that already
                exists in the map...Can’t we just use `get` or `get-in`?

                You used the :format as an example, which works with
                nil, :iso, or a String pattern as the last arg to
                nav. But again, :format is NOT in the datafied
                representation.

                In essence, I’ve tried to use `nav` to navigate to
                things that can be expensive and don’t necessarily
                belong in the actual datafied representation.

                If the second argument to `nav`,  is expected to be a
                key already present in the map, then I really don’t
                understand what is the point of `nav`.

                kind regards,

                Dimitris

                *From: *Sean Corfield <mailto:s...@corfield.org>
                *Sent: *02 February 2020 07:36
                *To: *Clojure Mailing List
                <mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com>
                *Subject: *Re: ANN: jedi-time 0.1.4

                This is very cool but I would strongly recommend you
                try using this with REBL so you can figure out how to
                make the `nav` part work in a more natural way.

                nav is intended to work with a key and value (from
                the datafied structure), but your nav expects special
                values so it doesn't work with REBL.

                You can put (java.time.Instant/now) into REBL and
                your datafication produces a great data
                representation, but you can't navigate into it using
                the keys (and values) of the data structure itself.
                You can put :format into the nav-> bar and it
                defaults to a format you can get a string back, but
                none of the other nav calls will work.

                You might consider combining the :format key with the
                actual format, e.g., :format-iso, :format-yy-MM-dd
                and if the key is something your don't recognize,
                just let it behave like regular data navigation.

                I think you're trying to do too much with nav, beyond
                "navigation". I think you could split some of the
                "clever" navigation out into a transform function
                that takes a datafied time and produces a new
                datafied time, and then let nav do the "conversion"
                back to Java objects. You've complected the
                transforms and the conversion right now.

                If you're on Slack, I'm happy to DM about this in
                more detail (when you're back from traveling).

                Sean

                On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 6:02 AM dimitris
                <jimpil1...@gmail.com <mailto:jimpil1...@gmail.com>>
                wrote:

                    Hi folks,

                    The first public release of `jedi-time` should be
                    hitting clojars any
                    minute now. I am traveling next week so may be
                    slow to reply to
                    feedback/bugs/PRs...

                    https://github.com/jimpil/jedi-time


                    Kind regards,

                    Dimitris

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Re: ANN: jedi-time 0.1.4

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