Thanks a lot for the background on RDF and links, very interesting indeed! About FOL, you equal the properties that we are talking about to predicates in FOL. I might have gotten it backwards here, but isn't the natural thing to think of our *map* as the relation (predicate) and our *properties* as the slots of the predicate (positional arguments being isomorphic (more succinct, but less readble and less flexible) to named roles of map datastructures)?
Reards/Henning On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 12:58 AM Rick Moynihan <rick.moyni...@gmail.com> wrote: > Having used both Clojure and RDF extensively I can say that there are many > similarities between these two worlds, and the influence of RDF on Clojure > isn't just something Rich say's, it's very apparant. > > I may be mistaken in some of the details here, but as I understand it in > the world of GOFAI (Good Old Fashioned AI) and KR (Knowledge > Representation) there were "frame languages" popularised by Minsky: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_language > > where you essentially describe the world in terms of classes, and classes > consist of sets of slots or properties, you may have inheritance etc... > essentially classical OOP. > > In the other KR camp however you have First Order Predicate Logic (FOL), > where the predicates (properties) essentially take centre stage, and > describe relations between objects. This modelling camp is largely where > RDF drew its inspiration for modelling from in the form of RDFS and OWL. > I'd argue (with no authority) that FOL is likely the true source of the > decomplected properties from maps idea in clojure; which is analagous to > what happened in KR. > > I mention frame languages, as I suspect there is a lot of academic > discourse on the pros and cons of frame based approaches vs FOL, which may > be relevant. > > In RDFS (RDF Schema: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDF_Schema) and OWL ( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Ontology_Language )you essentially > describe the domains and ranges of properties, and then use properties to > tie things together. In these languages you don't think of classes as > constraining the available properties. Infact properties often let you > infer the class of something, for example if you learn that :Rick > foaf:friend :Bill you also learn that :Rick and :Bill are foaf:Person's > too. This enables anyone to say anything about anything in RDF which is > why it's an open world system, where as frame based systems are typically > closed world, as you can't add properties to something without changing the > class. > > RDF and OWL aren't really constraint languages though, they're description > logics; so they don't typically let you restrict the values of things, > instead they let you infer new values. However recently there have been > moves to standardise ways to check RDF graphs form a certain well specified > shape. This has been in the form of the languages SheX and SHACL (now a > W3C standard: https://www.w3.org/TR/shacl/ ). > > I find it remarkable how similar these languages are to spec; though I > don't think spec drew any direct inspiration from them. I guess you just > end up in a similar place if you share a property oriented view of the > world. > > If you're interested in these languages this is a good online book on the > topic: > > http://book.validatingrdf.com/index.html > > RDF also has a lot in common with Datomic in that you describe data with > triples EAV(T) in datomic and SPO(G) in RDF. Likewise SPARQL and Datomic > have a common ancestor in Datalog. > > I believe another non RDF influence for spec is this paper: > > http://matt.might.net/papers/might2011derivatives.pdf > > Please take all of the above with a pinch of salt though, it's at best a > crude approximation on the lineage of these ideas... > > R. > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 08:16, Henning Sato von Rosen < > henning.von.ro...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 2:32 AM <dus...@hyperfiddle.net> wrote: >> >>> A lot of the attribute-centric thinking is inspired by RDF and >>> linked-data >>> >> >> Yes! Rich mentions that as well. So I tried to look into RDF, but it is >> huge! If anybody has a good link to material relevant to this discussion, >> I'm thankful, but at the time being we will likely not have time to dig >> into RDF. Rich's explanation is by far the most relevant andaccessible >> I've come across. >> >> Regards/Henning >> >> >> >> >> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/Dbh-5kNYKgE/unsubscribe. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Clojure" group. >> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >> your first post. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Clojure" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/Dbh-5kNYKgE/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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