In terms of trying to find "Quality" I have tried to encourage folk to both read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], and Deming's work on "total quality management".
My own slice at this network, computer and lifestyle "issue" is aiming for "imperceptible latency" in all things. [1]. There's a lot of fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing delay, but caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user really needs (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents. [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor to "zen...", lila, which is in part about what happens when an engineer hits an insoluble problem. [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/ On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <dpr...@deepplum.com> wrote: > > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to consider that > quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at the > physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers. > > > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality" suggests > that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet isn't the hardware or > the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*. > > > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the future, and the fact > that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this conference will likely fall > into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for some imaginary > reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never be what users > actually will do given the chance. > > > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the original Internet > protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special tricks to optimize > ASR33 logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka remote > login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different time-sharing > systems, and "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then > trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer, > because someone thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application. > > > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be "provided" by "the > network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument in system design". > Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network. If you want to > talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the users at all > times, now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if you > don't bother to include current and future users talking about what they > might expect to experience that they don't experience. > > > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically involved "network > experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve" such issues as > quality, so applications could avoid having to solve such issues. > > > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't "solve" such > issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables different uses to > *cooperate* in some way. > > > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than queueing them, and why > diffserv cannot work. > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment, ALL of diffserv > attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific metrics, but never, > ever explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t. what the IP > layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another violation of the > so-called end-to-end principle). > > > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there, multiplexing the > underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole different thing. Quality > can be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying network provides > some kind of thing that actually creates a way for end-to-end applications to > affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly getting > "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on with the > other end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure. > > > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't waste your time. > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <dave.t...@gmail.com> said: > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps, finally, we can > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past endless, blind > > repetitions of speedtest. > > > > For complete details, please see: > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ > > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE (Anywhere On Earth) > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021 > > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread over three days: > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021 > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021 > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021 > > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer Shapira > > > > The Program Committee members: > > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart Cheshire, Sam > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja Kuehlewind, > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen Nichols, > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith Winstein. > > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop...@iab.org. > > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source community and > > others that focus on measurements, experiences, observations and > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect experience > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The organizers > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are unlikely to be > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general categories of > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies, products, or > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers should not focus > > on specific protocol solutions. > > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing to attend > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it may take the > > form of an Internet-Draft. > > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to invite based on > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized according to > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited attendee will > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations. > > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the virtual sessions > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will be published > > afterwards. > > > > Overview: > > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this lack of progress > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often sole measure of > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow focus, people > > don’t consider questions such as: > > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions? > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time periods? > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of protocols? > > What services can be run by clients of the network? > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered, and are there > > firewalls? > > What security mechanisms are available for local services, such as DNS? > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality, integrity and > > authenticity of user communications guarded? > > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely depend on > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved parties, including to > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and exposure of the > > right metrics will allow service providers and network operators to > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience most and at > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet service that will > > give them the best experience." > > > > > > -- > > Latest Podcast: > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > -- Latest Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC _______________________________________________ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
