Hi Daniel,
On Jun 12, 2015, at 17:02 , Daniel Havey <dha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moell...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> [...]
>> Except that DOCSIS 3.1 pie in the modem does not work that way. As I
>> understand
>> http://www.cablelabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/DOCSIS-AQM_May2014.pdf
>> section 3.2 MAP PROCESSING REQUIREMENTS, cable-modem pie will not stuff data
>> into the lower layers until it has received a grant to actually send that
>> data, hence no uncontrolled sub-IP layer buffer bloat possible (unless there
>> are severe RF issues that take out data during transmission). So at least
>> for the upstream direction docsis 3.1 pie will not suffer from buffer
>> displacement, if I understand the cable labs white paper correctly.
>
> Hmmm, interesting. Are you sure? I'm a CS not a EE so the PHY layer
> is like black magic to me. However, I still think (although I am
> willing to be convinced otherwise by someone with superior knowledge
> :)) that the IP layer puts packet into a MAC layer queue. Then the
> MAC layer makes a queue depth based request for bandwidth in order to
> serialize and send the data.
I am not sure, but maybe Greg White (CCd) can help us out here? @Greg,
is it right that the docsis3.1 pie implementation will keep a close lid on how
many packets/bytes are queued in lower layers of the stack?
>
> If somebody really knows how this works, please help! :^) Is the
> upload of a docsis 3.1 modem really unbloatable below the IP layer? I
> just want to know for my own edification :)
>
>> Your solution still might be a valuable add-on to control the downstream
>> buffer bloat in addition.
> I agree! If that reading of the cablelabs paper is correct then this
> nicely solves the upload vs. download problem and we don't really need
> BQL either. If it is not true, then we use BQL on the egress to solve
> the upload bloat problem and ASQM to solve the download bloat problem.
> Perfect solution! I love it when a plan comes together! :^)
ASFAIK, BQL so far is only implemented in ethernet drivers, so if your
uplink is egaul or slightly higher than 10, 100, 1000, or 1000Mbps BQL with
fq_codel will not need and shaper on egress and should still hold the buffers
at bay. Unfortunately often the actual egress rates are quite off of these
ethernet sleep tiers. I believe Dave Taeht is trying to convince ethernet
drivers to set their egress at non-traditional rates, I could be wrong though...
>
>> I also believe that free in france had a modified DSL driver for
>> their box that made sure sub-IP buffering was bound to a low number of
>> packets as well, so no displaced buffers there as well. Now it seems that
>> this solution for DSL was unique so far and has not caught on, but once
>> docsis3.1 modems hit the market upstream PIE in the modems will be reality.
>
> freefrance? Dave isn't that your provider? I thought they were
> running fq_CoDel?
> In any case, just because PIE in the modems is a reality don't be
> tempted to declare the problem solved and go home. Never
> underestimate the ability of the ISPs to do the wrong thing for very
> good reasons :^) What happens if they don't turn it on? This is
> really what I was trying to solve with ASQM. What if your provider
> won't run CoDel or PIE for whatever incomprehensible reason? Then you
> run ASQM and be done with it.
I like your active sensing approach, I just believe that the scenario
you set-out n the paper is not fully true, so I tried to voice my concerns.
Personally I am on a vdsl-link so docsis pie or no docsis pie, my link is still
bloated and I am looking for new solutions. I like your magic packet idea, even
though my taste in these matters is debatable ;) but I fear to work this needs
to run on the modem, and thee are only few fully opensource modems around (if
any) on which to implement your active probe. Plus on a DSL link the congestion
typically comes between DSLAM and BRAS (as the DSL link is not shared, unlike
the cable situation) and I fear the DSLAM might already return the probe packet…
Best Regards
Sebastian
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moell...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 10, 2015, at 21:53 , Dave Taht <dave.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://dl.ifip.org/db/conf/networking/networking2015/1570064417.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> gargoyle's qos system follows a similar approach, using htb + sfq, and
>>>>> a short ttl udp flow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing this sort of measured, then floating the rate control with
>>>>> "cake" would be fairly easy (although it tends to be a bit more
>>>>> compute intensive not being on a fast path)
>>>>>
>>>>> What is sort of missing here is trying to figure out which side of the
>>>>> bottleneck is the bottleneck (up or down).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, we never did figure out how to separate the up from the
>>> downlink. However, we just consider the access link as a whole (up +
>>> down) and mark/drop according to ratios of queuing time.
>>
>> This is a bit sad; why reduce say the effective uplink bandwidth if
>> only the downstream is contended? Not that I have a good alternative
>> solution that will not require help from outside boxes.
>>
>>> Overall it
>>> seems to work well, but, we never did a mathematical analysis. Kind
>>> of like saying it's not a "bug", it is a feature. And it this case it
>>> is true since both sides can experience bloat.
>>
>> Yes, but you only want to throttle traffic on the congested leg of
>> the link, otherwise bandwidth efficiency goes to hell if you look at
>> bi-direction link-saturating traffic.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yeah, they relay on having a reliable packet reflector upstream of
>>>> the “bottleneck” so they get their timestamped probe packets returned. In
>>>> the paper they used either uplink or downlink traffic so figuring where
>>>> the bottleneck was easy at least this is how I interpret “Experiments were
>>>> performed in the upload (data flowing from the users to the CDNs) as well
>>>> as in the download direction.". At least this is what I get from their
>>>> short description in glossing over the paper.
>>>> Nice paper, but really not a full solution either. Unless the ISPs
>>>> cooperate in supplying stable reflectors powerful enough to support all
>>>> downstream customers. But if the ISPs cooperate, I would guess, they could
>>>> eradicate downstream buffer bloat to begin with. Or the ISPs could have
>>>> the reflector also add its own UTC time stamp which would allow to dissect
>>>> the RTT into its constituting one-way delays to detect the currently
>>>> bloated direction. (Think ICMP type 13/14 message pairs "on steroids",
>>>> with higher resolution than milliseconds, but for buffer bloat detection
>>>> ms resolution would probably be sufficient anyways). Currently, I hear
>>>> that ISP equipment will not treat ICMP requests with priority though.
>>>
>>> Not exactly. We thought this through for some time and considered
>>> many angles. Each method has its advantages and disadvantages.
>>>
>>> We decided not to use ICMP at all because of the reasons you stated
>>> above. We also decided not to use a "reflector" although as you said
>>> it would allow us to separate upload queue time from download. We
>>> decided not to use this because it would be difficult to get ISPs to
>>> do this.
>>>
>>> Are final choice for the paper was "magic" IP packets. This consists
>>> of an IP packet header and the timestamp. The IP packet is "self
>>> addressed" and we trick the iptables to emit the packet on the correct
>>> interface. This packet will be returned to us as soon as it reaches
>>> another IP layer (typically at the CMTS).
>>
>> Ah, thanks; I did not get this from reading over your paper (but that
>> is probably caused by me being a layman and having read it very quickly).
>> Question how large is that packet on-the-wire? IP header plus 8 byte makes
>> me assume 20+8 = 28, but that is missing the ethernet header, so rather
>> 14+20+8 = 42, but isn’t the shorts ethernet frame 64bytes?
>>
>>>
>>> Here's a quick summary:
>>> ICMP -- Simple, but, needs the ISP's cooperation (good luck :)
>>> Reflector -- Separates upload queue time from download queue time,
>>> but, requires the ISP to cooperate and to build something for us.
>>> (good luck :)
>>> Magic IP packets -- Requires nothing from the ISP (YaY! We have a
>>> winner!), but, is a little more complex.
>>
>> At the cost that you only get RTT instead of two one-way delays as
>> one ideally would like. But as stated above if you combine your method with
>> say docsis3.1 pie which promises to keep the upstream under tight control,
>> the any RTT changes should (mainly) be caused by downstream over-buffering
>> (effectively allowing you use you method to control the downstream well).
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also I am confused what they actually simulated: “The modems and
>>>> CMTS were equipped with ASQM, CoDel and PIE,” and “However, the problem
>>>> pop- ularly called bufferbloat can move about among many queues some of
>>>> which are resistant to traditional AQM such as Layer 2 MAC protocols used
>>>> in cable/DSL links. We call this problem bufferbloat displacement.” seem
>>>> to be slightly at odds. If modems and CTMS have decent AQMs all they need
>>>> to do is not stuff their sub-IP layer queuesand be done with it. The way I
>>>> understood the cable labs PIE story, they intended to do exactly that, so
>>>> at least the “buffer displacement” remedy by ASQM reads a bit like a straw
>>>> man argument. But as I am a) not of the cs field, and b) only glossed over
>>>> the paper, most likely I am missing something important that is clearly in
>>>> the paper...
>>>
>>> Good point! However, once again it's not quite that simple. Queues
>>> are necessary to absorb short term variations in packet arrival rate
>>> (or bursts). The queue required for any flow is given by the
>>> bandwidth delay product.
>>
>> Not a CS person, but that does not ring fully true; this basically
>> assumes a physical medium that will dump all packets into the buffer at one
>> time point and send them out a full delay period later; I think in reality
>> packets will be serialized and hence some packet will most likely have left
>> the buffer already before all have arrived, so the BDP is an more estimate
>> of an upper bound… not that there is anything wrong with designing solutions
>> aim to handle the worst case well.
>>
>>> Since we don't know the delay we can't
>>> predict the queue size in advance. What I'm getting at is the
>>> equipment manufacturers aren't putting in humongous queues because
>>> they are stupid, they are putting them there because in some cases you
>>> might really need that large of a queue.
>>
>> I thought our current pet hypothesis is that they aim for BDP at
>> their highest rated speeds or so, and all customers running that (huh speed
>> capable) equipment at lower rates are out of luck.
>>
>>>
>>> Statically sizing the queues is not the answer. Managing the size of
>>> the queue with an algorithm is the answer. :)
>>
>> No disagreement here, we just discuss the how not the why ;)
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Sebastian
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards
>>>> Sebastian
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dave Täht
>>>>> What will it take to vastly improve wifi for everyone?
>>>>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/explore/makewififast
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Cake mailing list
>>>>> c...@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cake
>>>>
>>
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