James - you do the most sensible informative  tests! Thank you..
Eleanor

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 16:39, James Holton <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've done a few little experiments over the years using simulated data
> where I know the "correct" phase, trying to see just how accurate FOMs
> are.  What I have found in general is that overall FOM values are fairly
> well correlated to overall phase error, but if you go
> reflection-by-reflection they are terrible.  I suppose this is because FOM
> estimates are rooted in amplitudes.  Good agreement in amplitude gives you
> more confidence in the model (and therefore the phases), but if your R
> factor is 55% then your phases probably aren't very good either.  However,
> if you look at any given h,k,l those assumptions become less and less
> applicable.  Still, it's the only thing we've got.
>
> 2qwAt the end of the day, the phase you get out of a refinement program is
> the phase of the model.  All those fancy "FWT" coefficients with "m" and
> "D" or "FOM" weights are modifications to the amplitudes, not the phases.
> The phases in your 2mFo-DFc map are identical to those of just an Fc map.
> Seriously, have a look!  Sometimes you will get a 180 flip to keep the sign
> of the amplitude positive, but that's it.  Nevertheless, the electron
> density of a 2mFo-DFc map is closer to the "correct" electron density than
> any other map.  This is quite remarkable considering that the "phase error"
> is the same.
>
> This realization is what led my colleagues and I to forget about "phase
> error" and start looking at the error in the electron density itself
> (10.1073/pnas.1302823110).  We did this rather pedagogically.  Basically,
> pretend you did the whole experiment again, but "change up" the source of
> error of interest.  For example if you want to see the effect of sigma(F)
> then you add random noise with the same magnitude as sigma(F) to the Fs,
> and then re-refine the structure.  This gives you your new phases, and a
> new map. Do this 50 or so times and you get a pretty good idea of how any
> source of error of interest propagates into your map.  There is even a
> little feature in coot for animating these maps, which gives a much more
> intuitive view of the "noise".  You can also look at variation of model
> parameters like the refined occupancy of a ligand, which is a good way to
> put an "error bar" on it.  The trick is finding the right source of error
> to propagate.
>
> -James Holton
> MAD Scientist
>
>
> On 10/2/2019 2:47 PM, Andre LB Ambrosio wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> How is the phase error estimated for any given reflection, specifically in
> the context of model refinement? In terms of math I mean.
>
> How useful is FOM in assessing the phase quality, when not for initial
> experimental phases?
>
> Many thank in advance,
>
> Andre.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1
>

########################################################################

To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1

Reply via email to