Charlie,

This is not a good comparison because combining NMR and X-ray data is like having higher resolution again (i.e. more constraints). Further, the informations are much more of a "redundant nature" than "profoundly complementary" as they stem from the same molecule.
More resolution would be "profoundly complementary".....

In my eyes the following statement still is true:

........ it is invariably the case that high resolution X-ray structures (< 2.0 Å) show significantly better agreement with solution observables such as coupling constants etc., that the corresponding NMR structures, including the very best ones........

Kuszewski, Gronenborn & Clore, Prot Sci 5, 1067-1080 (1996)

- Jeroen -



Charles W. Carter Jr. wrote:


Begin forwarded message:

*From: *"Charles W. Carter Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
*Date: *November 15, 2008 9:51:36 AM EST
*To: *Boaz Shaanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
*Subject: **Re: [ccp4bb] X-Ray versus NMR Structure*

Boaz:

I have always and still fee that this paper is a landmark, because it shows that neither the X-ray nor the NMR data set alone gave as good a set of constraints for refinement as did both sets of constraints together. The structure that fitted both constraints ultimately gave a better fit to the NMR constraints AND to the crystallographic constraints than any of the models constrained only to one or the other set of constraints. Thus, the NOE distance constraints and the X-ray amplitudes are profoundly complementary.

I formed that conclusion back in 92, when the paper was published, and have seen no evidence since that my conclusion then was wrong.

Charlie


On Nov 14, 2008, at 6:13 PM, Boaz Shaanan wrote:

oops, I forgot to give the reference:

Science (1992), vol. 257, p. 961

       Boaz

----- Original Message -----
From: Young-Tae Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008 23:57
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] X-Ray versus NMR Structure
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>

> Here are some of my thoughts and I was also seeking good
> references > pointing out systematic comparison of X-ray and NMR approaches.
>
> Both X-ray and NMR structures are models calculated from
> experimental > data. Therefore coordinates from both structures have > uncertainty and > are inevitably somehow biased.
>
> B-factors of crystal structural models would contain that
> uncertainty > information. Crystal structures with low resolution data will > have > higher uncertainty contribution to B-factors than high > resolution > structures.
>
> Note that NMR structures are typically represented as ensembles.
> This > is largely because of limited number of experimental data > for > accurate determination of structures. Traditionally many > starting > structures are calculated to fulfill interatomic distances > derived > from NMR experimental data. A set of converged structures are > refined > further as in x-ray structure refinement.
>
> Pairwise RMSD of ensemble indicates the precision of NMR
> structures. > As more number of NMR data is used for calculation, resultant > RMSD of > ensemble is smaller, indicating more precise structures, but > not > necessarily more accurate structures. Different from X-ray > crystallography, there is not very good way to assess accuracy > of NMR > structures. However, as many restraints are added, contribution > of > wrong restraints becomes smaller or could be excluded > during > calculation.
>
> RMSD of ensemble of NMR structures can be interpreted as
> the > uncertainty of coordinates. Core residues of NMR structures > have > smaller RMSDs in a similar way that core residues of > crystal > structures have relatively smaller B-factors compared to > surface > residues.
>
> 3A crystal structure would have 1A displacement of atoms in
> average > calculated from B-factors. The precision of this resolution > crystal > structure could correspond to that of NMR ensemble with 1A > pairwise > RMSD. For another example, NMR ensemble with 0.4A RMSD will have > a > similar precision to 1.4A crystal structure.
>
> Both x-ray and NMR approaches can reveal "atomic
> resolution > structures" but precision and quality of structures should be > varying > depending on individual examples.
>
> Finally, incorporation of uncertainty in explicit way for
> crystal > structures as for NMR ensemble could be useful for better > representation of structural models as shown in the following paper.
>
> Ensemble Refinement of Protein Crystal Structures: Validation
> and > Application, Structure 15, 1040-1052, 2007
>
> Young-Tae
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 8:57 PM, David Chenoweth wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Does anyone know of a good published reference that describes
> the > > pros and cons of X-ray versus NMR structure > determination. > > Something specific to nucleic acids would even be better. > I've > > noticed that several papers describe NMR structures as > "atomic > > resolution structures" and I'm just wondering what people > think of > > this.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > David
> >
> > **********************************************
> > David M. Chenoweth
> > California Institute of Technology
> > Division of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering
> > Mail Code: 164-30
> > 1200 California Boulevard, 91125 Pasadena
> > California, USA
> >
> > Phone: 626-395-6074
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > **********************************************
>
> Young-Tae Lee, Ph. D.
> Research Associate
> The Scripps Research Institute
> Dept. of Molecular Biology
>
>
>
>

Boaz Shaanan, Ph.D.
Dept. of Life Sciences
Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
Beer-Sheva 84105
Israel
Phone: 972-8-647-2220 ; Fax: 646-1710
Skype: boaz.shaanan

‎

**********UNCrystallographers  NOTE new website url******************
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Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics CB 7260
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FAX 919 966-2852



**********UNCrystallographers  NOTE new website url******************

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

http://xtal.med.unc.edu/CARTER/Welcome.html

Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics CB 7260

UNC Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7260

Tel:  919 966-3263

FAX 919 966-2852





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Dr. Jeroen R. Mesters
Gruppenleiter Strukturelle Neurobiologie und Kristallogenese
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