Of course, there are definitely times where cloning is necessary. The
typical example would of course be when a value is assigned to another and
that value is subsequently changed (by using indexed assignment).
And you mentioning the issue of not know *who* are the owners of an object
reminds me of the fact that I also came across that issue. At first I was
thinking that the problem is trivial; that you simply clone if the owner
count is >1. Then I realised that there could be many owners, but those
owners are not going to touch the object anymore.
There must be an optimal solution here. I'm sure you agree with me about
the ideal situation: Where there is no cloning *except* for when it's
needed because an object will be changed.
Now: Can you confirm if I'm correct in my assessment that the *only* thing
that forces cloning in the first place is indexed assignment? If APL had no
such feature, then there would be zero need for cloning, yes?
Regards,
Elias
On 24 August 2014 22:46, Juergen Sauermann <juergen.sauerm...@t-online.de>
wrote:
> Hi Elias,
>
> I don't know. Actually I just found a nasty example which renders my
> statement below
> ("I believe the *clone()* call in *Symbol::resolve(**)* can be skipped
> completely") wrong:
>
> * A←10⍴10*
> * A+ (A[3]←3) ⊢ A*
>
> Currently a value is cloned when it is assigned to a variable and again
> when the variable is referenced.
> The above example shows why cloning on reference is needed. You get the
> correct *20 20 13 20 20 20 20 20 20 20*
> when you clone and the wrong *20 20 6 20 20 20 20 20 20 20* if not.
>
> The problem that I see with CoW is that we know how many owners a value
> has but not who they are.
>
> And you definitely dont want to clone on indexed assignment because very
> often you have a large value
> and only a small part being updated. With CoW you dont want to clone the
> value that is being assigned but
> rather the other (possibly many copies) and those we don't know.
>
> I also don't share your opinion that the cloning is unnecessary. I think
> it is more so that it is sometimes unnecessary,
> but at the time when you would not clone you don't have enough
> information to properly make that decision.
>
> /// Jürgen
>
>
> On 08/24/2014 04:04 PM, Elias Mårtenson wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation. With this in mind, I'm wondering about two
> specific cases and how you intend to solve them (these are are ones that
> gave me the biggest headache):
>
> First of all, how will you avoid doing a clone() on every update using
> indexed assignment? You need some way to know whether or not an instance
> have to be cloned or can be modified in-place.
>
> A related case is normal left-arrow assignment. It is not desirable to
> do a clone() on every assignment either. You want to basically do a
> "deferred clone" (i.e. CoW) so that the instances can be shared in both
> variables until one of them is updated.
>
> When I was thinking about this, I couldn't get away from concluding that
> a full CoW implementation is needed in order to avoid all unnecessary
> cloning.
>
> Regards,
> Elias
>
>
> On 24 August 2014 00:01, Juergen Sauermann <juergen.sauerm...@t-online.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Elias,
>>
>> normally APL values are not written to. The exception is indexed
>> assignment.
>>
>> I believe the *clone()* call in *Symbol::resolve(**)* can be skipped
>> completely.
>> This is probably the most frequently used *clone() *case. I suppose
>> copy-on-write semantics is
>> achieved when all *clone()* calls are gone. Many of the remaining
>> *clone()* calls are specific
>> to certain functions so their performance impact should be small.
>>
>> I haven't done the above before the 1.4 release because I didn't want to
>> release
>> a not-so-well tested optimization.
>>
>> /// Jürgen
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/23/2014 05:32 PM, Elias Mårtenson wrote:
>>
>> Cool :-)
>>
>> Speaking of this, I did spend quite a bit of time some time ago to try
>> to figure out an easy way to get generic copy-on-write semantics, but I
>> never came to a satisfactory conclusion. I might revisit it later.
>>
>> Have you thought about it? It is, after all, related to this specific
>> optimisation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Elias
>>
>>
>> On 23 August 2014 23:29, Juergen Sauermann <
>> juergen.sauerm...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have revived Elias' in-place optimization for *A⍴B* and *,B* now
>>> usinng a different
>>> way of figuring if *B* is in use. SVN 445.
>>>
>>> /// Jürgen
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
