On 31/08/2008, at 2:54 PM, Olin Elliott wrote: > On 30/08/2008 Charlie Bell wrote: >> ...there are some people that believe human life >> starts at birth. There are a few (a very few) that believe it starts >> when humans attain sapience (Peter Singer is one). There are many >> that >> think it starts at conception. Most think somewhere between >> conception >> and birth, round about when the foetus has a good chance of surviving >> independently of the placenta. > > Since you mention Peter Singer, he makes an interesting point. The > people who are most concerned about the life of a foetus, which has > little if any sentience, are generally unconcerned about the life of > other creatures with much greater degrees of sentience.
Both sentience and sapience. The point about sapience, or full self- awareness, is that in humans it doesn't occur until 3-4 years of age. And as you point out, adults in many species exhibit at least the reasoning of a human toddler, and in some species that of a child. The list of species that pass the mirror test is growing - recently the European magpie was added to the list. Other corvids (particularly ravens) have been known to be very smart. While I'm not sure about parrots - some of the smarter species may be, and even smaller dippy parrots like rainbow lorikeets can have a vocab of 10 or more "words" and associate those with actions or objects, certainly our close ape relatives and certain domestic pets pass the test too. (Could we have been inadvertantly breeding for intelligence in our companion critters - I think it likely). So Singer's argument is that we will put down seriously sick or injured animals, and yet a newborn infant that is seriously sick or disabled we will keep alive at all costs when maybe we shouldn't and that a painless and quick end is not only the kind thing to do, it's the right thing to do (and a similar argument but even stronger is made at the other end of life when people not only can feel pain, they can express clearly their wish to end their suffering, but that's for another thread). Our ethics do seem very badly skewed at times. Good post, Olin. Charlie. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
