At 11:23 AM Wednesday 7/23/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
>On Jul 23, 2008, at 10:21 AM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:
> > At 08:02 AM Wednesday 7/23/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
> >> On Jul 23, 2008, at 3:04 AM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:
> >>> At 10:06 PM Tuesday 7/22/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
> >>>> On Jul 22, 2008, at 9:29 PM, hkhenson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am not optimistic that this will be done. If this or some other
> >>>>> really huge supply of primary energy is not found, we are going to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> in for some nasty times. The other way the energy crisis will be
> >>>>> solved is for the world population to fall to about a billion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Keith
> >>>>
> >>>> Pretty sure we're headed for a population crash at least that
> >>>> drastic
> >>>> regardless. it's obvious to me that the earth cannot support 6-7
> >>>> billion sustainably no matter what we do. And there are certain
> >>>> parts
> >>>> of the population doing their best to outbreed everyone else just
> >>>> to
> >>>> skew future demographics. So it's likely to be a hard crash, and
> >>>> not
> >>>> a very well controlled one at that.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Showing again that the underlying problem is that people must
> >>> renounce greed and selfishness and replace them with cooperation and
> >>> altruism.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> . . . ronn! :)
> >>
> >> It's been tried. Many times.
> >
> >
> > You know what Yoda said.
> >
> >
> > . . . ronn! :)
> >
> > "Do . . . or do not. There is no try."
> > -- Yoda
>
>I have to go with Pat's quote. I personally would absolutely love to
>live in a world run on cooperation and altruism, and I see those as
>ideals we're working toward, some people of this species grasp the
>value of it more than others. But a world run on cooperation and
>altrusim can't be established by fiat, because it depends on
>*everyone* (or at least a critical mass of the population) believing
>in those values and taking ownership of the process of putting them
>into action,
Correct!
> and historically, social movements based on precisely
>those values have been the ones most vulnerable to being subverted to
>serve personal greed, and the ones most prone to become oppressive
>oligarchies and dictatorships.
That simply means that we have to keep on trying ("never give up!").
>For every Marx, there's a Stalin.
>(Which was one of the many examples I meant by "it's been tried".)
I was not aware that either of those was associated with a movement
to convince everyone that they must love each other as much as they
love their family members or indeed themselves.
>This species is just not ready to be turned loose with only its own
>individuals' ethical and moral senses as police. And a world built on
>cooperation and altruism has to be exactly that -- it's not something
>that can be imposed on people from outside, it's something they have
>to consciously choose for it to work.
Correct. As the hot dog vendor told the Zen master
(<http://www.ouuf.org/Humor/zen.html>): "Change comes only from within."
>Some of us get it. But not enough, not by far, not yet ..
Is there any other way to help them to "get it" than to keep reminding them?
. . . ronn! :)
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