> -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 3:57 AM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: Barack Obama > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Minettte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 11:55 PM > Subject: RE: Barack Obama > > > >> > > >> > >> The three closely placed shots to the forehead from about 10 yards > >> is very suspicious. (This, I've heard is from the coroner report) > >> The "official" story that has changed at least 4 times makes it > >> even more suspicious. > > > > I googled and quickly found this site: > > > > http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2007/07/pat-tillman-death-and- > conspiracy > > -part.html > > Geez Dan, that is a godawful site to be citing from.
OK, I will take the website's comments with a grain of salt. What led me to believe that I could rely on it is that they had a link to what they said was the original report that everyone was talking about: http://www.rmda.belvoir.army.mil/rmdaxml/rmdadocuments/ERR%20DOCUMENTS/Tillm an-USACIDC_ROI_0013-06-CID201-50048.pdfhttp://www.rmda.belvoir.army.mil/rmda xml/rmdadocuments/ERR%20DOCUMENTS/Tillman-USACIDC_ROI_0013-06-CID201-50048.p df http://tinyurl.com/37jmk7 To check on this, now that you've commented on this website being suspect, I went to http://www.rmda.belvoir.army.mil/rmdaxml/default.asp and found what looks like the official site for army documentation and declassification. I went to the pages they cited, and it looks like they cited accurately. It is quite > obviously one of those cherry-picking-partisan websites devoted to > putting some opposing spin on an issue. > And it blatantly attempts to mislead, frex the conflation of 10 feet > with 10 yards. I think their point was that 10 yards wasn't mentioned in the report...that the news media took a misread by AP and ran with it. Now, its possible that there is another ME report that cites 10 yards (the report appears to be pictures so the text search doesn't work) but I didn't find it after a quick look....with > 1000 pages I certainly could miss something. Maybe someone else can find it. :-) > > > > > > > > If you look later in this analysis, you will see strong criticism of > > the military's handling of the truth afterwards. > > That appears to be almost universal. I'm sure your googling shows that > the same as mine does. Yes, but I used that....along with the reference to original source material including accurate page numbers...which I didn't see elsewhere (just variations of the same sound bite) to arrive at the conclusion that this information was fairly trustworthy. Another ME report that specifically mentions yards would lower the trust I have in this site. Solid evidence that they referenced a fabricated report would destroy it. > Well, that is pretty much what I see and what I'm saying. But I am > going further and saying that the cover-up is *causing* the conspiracy > theories. Contribute to, I'll agree. But, given the fraction of Americans who believe that Bush was connected to the 9-11 attack, I think that there is a significant group of people who are willing to believe almost anything bad about Bush...so that it would only take a spark. > > I think this point requires some clarification. In this case when one > speaks of murder, one has to assume that the speaker could be thinking > of any range of events from an accidental homicide to premeditated > murder. I suppose, but I tend to read murder as, you know, murder. For example googling "Pat Tillman murder", I get as the opinions on the first 5 sites: <quote> Rolling Stone Mag: Propaganda, Wrapped in Lies, Covering up Murder? Was Pat Tillman fragged? <end quote> The second is a right wing site quoting a left wing site: http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/31/wonkette-who-ordered-pat-tillmans-murd er/ quoting http://wonkette.com/politics/dept%27-of-political-assassinations/who-ordered -the-execution-of-nflarmy-hero-pat-tillman-284472.php Dept. of Political Assassinations Who Ordered the Execution of NFL/Army Hero Pat Tillman? It's almost too depressing to mention again, but let's recap the Pat Tillman revelations from Army medical examiners and internal Pentagon reports released last week and find out what happens when famous football stars turned Army Heroes become anti-war critics: * He was shot three times in the forehead at close range with an American M-16. * This was after he was shot in the chest, legs and hand. * And this was after he screamed to the "friendlies" that he was Pat Tillman and please stop shooting him. * But they didn't; they executed him. * They were Americans. The third is another right wing site quoting a left wing site: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/188861.php http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/27/82034/6929 <quote> have confirmed that Tillman had arranged to meet with a leading anti-war intellectual, Noam Chomsky, upon his return stateside. One can imagine the panic in the Office of the Secretary of Defense at the vision of the much trumpeted poster-boy hero of the War on Terror returning home and speaking out against the evil charade of the War. That aspect, combined with the nature of the wounds, the destruction of evidence, the first-level coverup, and the dream promotion of the commander in charge... well, you see where this is going. <end quote> This seems to be an insinuation that an murder was ordered from on high, but not exactly state it. It doesn't sound like they think it was just a friendly fire accident. At http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/58265/ The author contrasts murder with friendly fire...and doesn't equate them. He says that he doesn't personally believe it is a kill order from on high. But, the website does call it a straight murder. The fifth: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content _id=1003617692 Said: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content _id=1003617692 >I'm not particularly attracted to the premeditated murder theories, >though I do believe they are basically consistant with the facts of >the matter. FWIW, the ME didn't. Page 121 of the report quotes him as saying that he did not see the death as consistent with murder. Another coroner, somewhere in the 20s, reviewed the death and say he could only conclude it was from > 5 feet. > > For example, Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who testified in a Congressional > > hearing that > > > > <quote> > > > > I wanted right off the bat to let the family know what had happened, > > especially Kevin, because I worked with him in a platoon and I knew > > that he and the family all needed to know what had happened," O'Neal > > testified. "I was quite appalled that when I was actually able to > > speak with Kevin, I was ordered not to tell him." > > I've seen this sourced in several places. > > > > > > Asked who gave him the order, O'Neal replied that it came from his > > battalion commander, then-Lt. Col. Jeff Bailey. > > > > "He basically just said ... 'Do not let Kevin know, that he's > > probably in a bad place knowing his brother's dead,' " O'Neal told > > House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Henry > > Waxman. "And he made it known I would get in trouble, sir, if I > > spoke with Kevin on it being fratricide." > > > > <end quote> > > > > must really have been part of a plot to murder Tillman. > > > > There are other quotes that have him saying that Tillman was the > > only boss who didn't degrade anyone. He was 18 years old...and I > > really don't see him as part of a massive government plot. > > > >>Questions such as why Tillman's uniform was burned immediately > > > > Because the friendly fire death of a poster boy for the war was > > inconvenient...especially after the wheels started turning. > > But you do understand how Tillman's anti-Iraq-war stance complicates > the matter? Actually, no. Coincidences happen. It would have to be a murder order that passed to low levels with everyone _still_ successfully covering it up. > The link you quote shows that there was a cover-up ordered. I don't argue with that....I don't think anyone does any more. The "right wing site" states that as a fact. The only point of dispute that I see is whether it was an accidental or deliberate death. > > > > IMHO, the Pat Tillman murder conspiracy is like the Bill Clinton > > mass murderer conspiracy theory. Since Bill was found covering > > things up, he must be covering up murder. I find it disconcerning > > that so many people of either party believe the worst of opponents, > > but are sure that only lies are told about their folks. > > > > Well Dan, isn't that pretty much what you are doing? > You start with the assumption that people here believe Bush or > administration higher ups ordered Tillman's death and argue from > there. Actually, I start with the assumption that a number of folks do believe this. I know that you post references to ideas you don't really believe in, so I just argue the ideas without assuming you are doing any more than taking a devils advocates role. I don't assume you believe in something unless you do something like write "I think" or "I believe" before a statement. But, I do know that a few folks here believe the "the WTC was brought down by explosives planted by the government" is equally credible as the view that the impact of two planes (and maybe some pre-existing problems with the building) was the cause. I can look up posts if need be. And, believing that folks are living in an alternate reality with regard to some issues is not the same as believing that folks one opposes politically are murderers. > I have not seen anyone say that specifically. I've seen a number of folks do that. I would bet dollars vs. donuts that the folks I met at the Dennis Kochinski (sp) meeting believe Tillman was murdered on orders from very senior people. I do know that some folks here think that there is a good chance that Bush is planning on somehow interfering with the transfer of power in 2009. I have quotes on that. > Families who donate their children's lives to the service of their > country deserve a much more honest response from their elected and > appointed officials. That's all true. I have no problem with that. But, when you write " The whole story very well could be a dead fish of the friendly fire species, but it stinks like assassination."...then I think that you are arguing that murder ordered from on high is a position that a reasonable person might take. I'm arguing it is not. The assumption that I made from your post about _your_ viewpoint is that you tend to believe it wasn't deliberate...but that reasonable people could differ on this...and we need to investigate all possibilities further. Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
