On 09/05/2006, at 5:07 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
On 5/9/06, Charlie Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Exactly what I'm saying. Humans have always had that - it's precisely
what makes us human. :) So when Nick says "prior to the invention of
scientific methods... ...it must have been a weird, weird world" he's
right. It was weird 'cause there weren't any people in it. That
humans have spent most of prehistory and history coming up with wrong
answers is fine - that's how it works. We're gradually getting closer
to the right answers.
The scientific method is the only way to learn anything... the only
way
anybody learns anything is the scientific method. It's a circular
argument.
No, that's just saying the same thing two ways. Saying that the sum
of knowledge is the consequence of years of trial and error, and more
trial and error is the best way of continuing to add to that
knowledge is not circular. Or is "I drove a car to get here, and if I
carry on driving this car I can get over there" a circular argument?
What I'm suggesting above is that the ability to store memories, pass
on information, and test assumptions against observations is the core
of what we are and the foundation of our understanding and
interaction with the universe and each other.
If these statements were true, how would we ever learn anything
that isn't
true? How does error get into our brains if we cannot learn things
in ways
that are unscientific?
Nice straw man. I said human knowledge is the sum of trial and error,
not that everything we learn is true.
People lie. People make mistakes. People come up with the wrong
explanations. People pass on lies and mistakes. Sometimes those lies
or mistakes are compelling. Often they're compelling because they're
easier than the truth. Or they're just the best explanation
available. But that doesn't mean they're right. That's the "error"
part of the whole "trial and error" thing. We can accumulate wrong
knowledge, we just have to believe it.
The stars used to be the fires of our ancestors, or the funeral pyres
of dead warriors, or the representations of heroes, or even the gods
themselves. These were all explanations passed on from generation to
generation, they were all considered true at various times by various
peoples. They were all wrong.
We all know lots of things that are wrong. We've misunderstood (that
happens), or we've convinced ourselves because it makes us feel
better (no, I really did leave her, she didn't leave me), or we like
the story (marc almond/elton john/rod stewart collapsed on stage and
had horse semen pumped from their stomachs), or we've just been told
stuff that isn't true - whether knowingly or not - (Iraq has chemical
weapons that can strike Cyprus).
And if we *can* learn things in ways that are
unscientific, why can't some of them be true?
They can be. It's just difficult to show they're true if you refuse
to allow inquiry. Revelations or flashes of insight sometimes come
out of the blue. They might well be true. But without any kind of
further study, or development, what's the point?
Plenty of things that aren't "true" can have meaning and value, if
only as entertainment, or art, or for our own satisfaction. Politics
is more about beliefs (or self-interest) than truth. But the rest?
Things that are outside the realms of naturalism which are "true"?
Ethics? Morals? They're a social construct. Beauty, love? They're
feelings, powerful ones, and they're real in many ways, and I suppose
that it could be said that's a form of "truth". But they're just too
subjective to be universal, and that's one of the important features
of truth, in my book - that it's independent of our individual
perceptions, that it can be shared by all.
This mailing list is rather unscientific, in my opinion (not that I
have
rigorously tested this hypothesis). Yet here we are.
"Yet here we are". I post. Replies appear, thanks to the efforts of
various other human (I assume, given that the ones I've met IRL were
fairly human) participants. That's all. It's just a mailing list.
It's not a metaphor for metaphysics, unless Zeus is on MSN these days.
Charlie
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