> Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >From: Deborah Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > What we have here Deb (would you rather Debbi?),
> >That's what my dad calls me. ;)
> Ah...ok...but which would you prefer?
I was in a particularly silly mood yesterday, being
cryptic; Debbi, please. :)
> > > >From: Deborah Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Travis Edmunds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > the only reason that I
> > > spouted - "It's all based on the
> > > teachings of Jesus" (paraphrase) - was to point
> > > out hypocrisy as I see it,
> > > running rampant throughout christianity, and
> > > specifically throughout catholicism. <snip>
> >I think that the vast majority of the faithful have
> >no idea how much of what they believe (of church
> >doctrine) has no basis in Scripture....so I don't
> >think that they're being hypocritical.
> Neither do I. I was actually talking about the
> administration.
There probably is either hypocrisy or a serious case
of 'the masses can't understand this complexity,
therefore we will teach them black and white' at the
highest echelons. I'm not sure if it's true that so
many people want clear, unequivocal directions (I've
heard this argued), or if they simply aren't
encouraged to think of things as multi-faceted, and so
don't develop critical thinking well.
<snip>
> > > I - 'simply
> > > understand that I am human and prone to
> > > imperfection, and want others to
> > > acknowledge that about me and about themselves
> > > as well' - which in my own
> > > way, is an apology of sorts. Or perhaps more
> > > accurately, a defensive posture. <snip>
> >Now if you were Kerry, the Republicans would just
> >say that you flip-flopped on this... ;)
> What if I'm human? (as opposed to a politician).
<serious> The problem seems to be (in part) that
politicians and their constituents _forget_ that thay
are merely human, living in a complex world that
cannot be accurately reduced to catchy sound-bites.
> > >>....The major problem I have with it [karma] is
> > > >....that if a person is in dire straits, it's
> > > >their own or former self's fault.... <snip>
> > > As a social construct it's quite stabilizing....
> > > but promotes a fatalistic
> > > >viewpoint (IMHO). [I think the concept of
> > > >Purgatory serves a similar societal function.]
> > > That's interesting. And I agree. Consider this
> > > however - If you think that
> > > purgatory serves a societal function similar to
> > > that of karma, then what
> > > does that say about christianity in general? For
> > > purgatory is but one branch of a deep-rooted
> tree.
>>It is not a tenet of Protestant denominations,AFAIK;
> >I don't know what the Greek Orthodox say about it.
> I'm talking about catholicism.
Oh, I was responding to the "christianity in general"
phrase - IOW Purgatory is not a part of any of the
Protestant denominations that I am familiar with.
> Besides, if purgatory
> has nothing to do with
> those religions then it serves no real purpose to
> bring them up in this
> discussion. Unless of course I'm missing
> something...
<blink> If I'm going to criticize the concept of
karma, which I understand is an integral part of a
religion in which I was not raised, it would be remiss
of me not to note a similar construct in Christianity
(even if it isn't a version which I practiced, i.e.
Catholicism). I was just being evenly critical.
> >But to toss out _all_ spiritual beliefs, influence,
> >and practices because of the misuse of some is
> equally
> >simplistic. Somewhere in that turbid and noisome
> >bathwater is a baby!
> I'm not sure if that was a sleight towards me or
> not. It can be taken either way.
> Anyway, I agree with you.
Not a slam, but yes, as a criticism of those who lump
all spiritual beliefs and practices together. That is
like saying that all governments are equally bad,
which I think is obviously untrue. Otherwise, why
would we care if we traded in our democratic republic
for a dictatorship?
> > > It's like I have said before - downplaying any
> > > one facet of organized
> > > religion can serve only to disparage the whole.
Please explain how, if this statement is correct, that
I can say (and mean) that I think the US has one of
the best governments in the world, yet criticize the
current administration (as I do in multiple areas)?
Similarly, I can say that the appendix is a useless
part of the body, yet marvel at the body in its
entirety -- it is _amazing_ that everything works as
well as it does! I'm sure a car buff could come up
with some vehicle that is extraordinary except for a
poor...clutch, or rear light, or something.
> > > ....It's all intertwined!
> >I disagree.
> Of course you disagree. That's the whole point. The
> ultimate hypocrisy so to
> speak! The only problem is that you have to adhere
> to *my* viewpoint in
> order to see it. And that is that all facets of a
> particular religion are
> interrelated with the whole. Which of course they
> are.
You will have to give me better arguments than "you
have to adhere to *my* viewpoint" to show that "all
facets of a particular religion are interrelated with
the whole." Frex, find another large organization,
social construct or complex creation that does not
have at least one admirable and at least one
undesirable trait. Even in a dictatorship there can
be sections that work well - mail delivery, or street
safety. Even the white supremacists can be good at
frex communicating their goals (now I happen to find
them reprehensible, but I can't fault their ability to
find and rouse their target audience).
> Think on this however...what does that say about
> organized religion and all
> it's various branches, as a universal institution?
> Or as singular entities?
If you could demonstrate that *no good* has come out
of *any religion,* you would have proven your point.
But you cannot show that. I would agree that _some_
cults have only had a bad effect - like the Jonestown
horror - and I've already agreed that extremists of
all religious flavors are misogynists (or treat women
as srcond-class).
Debbi
Grey, Gris And Other Shades Inbetween Maru :)
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