From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Winning the War on Terror Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:20:07 -0500
At 11:15 AM 3/24/2004 -0330 Travis Edmunds wrote:
>As far as I'm concerned, those opinions are far from startling. Is it truly
>a suprise to see such resignation,(and resignation is indeed what it is) in
>that first "opinion" there? We are after all, talking about a people who
>have been brutally and oppressively ruled by a brutal and oppressive
>dictator.
Well, one of the central points of my posting is that while such opinions could be assigned to factors particular to the Iraqi experience, that inf act the evidence is that such opinions are actually pervasive throughout the Arab World. i.e. that despite the differences among the tyrannies of the Husseins, Sauds, Assads, Mubarak's, et al. of the Arab World that the fostering of such distorted impressions of the outside world is a common thread throughout all of them. Indeed, this thread seems to run even through the so-called "liberal" tyrannies of Qatar and the UAE. Moreover, my point is that these distorted perceptions of the outside world and utter lack of control over their own country's destiny (ie as the tyrants hold absolute power in their own countries) to fuel the War by Terror against our country.
Being a westerner, and thus sharing many of the fundamental ideals of our society with other westerners, I am compelled to emotionally identify with such comments as:
- "distorted impressions of the outside world is a common thread throughout all of them." (Arab nations)
However, emotion aside, I cannot agree with the above statement, which is an important point in your argument of wiping out the breeding grounds for terrorism. Of course you have a good point. There is absolutely no doubt that eliminating the environments in which terrorism thrives, would be at the very least somewhat effective. If not a perfect solution! But in doing so, you are draping an American flag over non-American countries. And what I'm saying is, that may not be necessary. Especially seeing as how actual terrorists are a minority in their own society. And if the majority of the populations of these Arab nations are indeed sympathetic to the cause of terrorism (without actually crossing the line), then I again ask, can you blame them? Moreover, is the American view of the outside world not perhaps distorted? Well, from an American point of view, no. That is why I asked the "what if? impartial alien" question at end of my last post. I thought it actually had some substance.
In any case John, don't take me for a complete abstract loon! I of course have to wholeheartedly agree with such statements as:
-(Some Arab nations have)"utter lack of control over their own country's destiny"
No doubt about it. And I will even go out on a limb and say that in one sense, pushing democracy on certain nations may not be that bad of a thing. Hell! I don't want fanatics from other countries, with different ideals terrorizing MY country. Or yours, or any country that lives life as we do. I just think that charging in and forcing the issue may not be the appropriate solution. And in doing so, the so-called "good guys" are in turn breeding more hate. Besides, a fanatic is someone, who when they lose sight of their purpose, redoubles their efforts. And you tell me, who's fanatical?
In fact how about this? A standoff. A compromise. Similar to the whole point of possessing nuclear weapons - the implied threat. You point one at me, I point one at you, and everything's ok. Peace, or perhaps more accurately, equilibrium is attained. Why can't it be attained with terrorists? For surely, nothing short of complete world domination by the USA can completely eliminate terrorism.
Thus, I wonder, does your point about these distorted impressions of the outside world being the natural result of any police force producing an unhappy minority apply in your mind particularly to the Iraqi experience - or can you extend this idea to explaining the prevalence of these distortions throughout the Arab world?
No, no. The whole police force bit, is but one piece of the puzzle. I'm sure you agree. Besides, the whole point of "distorted impressions" is your brainchild, not mine. I agree with some of the causes and effects, but disagree with some of the perceptions of those causes and effects, as you may have noticed above.
You yourself ask this question, a little later on, and I think that it is because the tyrants of the Arab World have found these distorted memes as a useful means of channelling dissatisfaction with their own regimes into outrage at the outside world. I'm not sure, however, that your analogy of resentment at "police forces" applies more generally to the Arab world as a whole.
I couldn't agree more John. But I have a problem with your all-American, and in the way that I see things, moderately extremist stance. Granted, your position is solidified by what's actually happening in the real world, but the perspective is one of complete partiality. There is a lot to be said for taking that proverbial step back, and sizing things up from there.
I would commend you however for sticking to your guns, just as the bush admin did and currently is. If nothing else, your stance is effective. Somewhat anyway.
>>Moreover, as has been noted many times on this List,
>>most Arabs living within the Arab World have been subject to some
>>particularly virulent forms of propaganda throughout their lives.
>
>Lets assume that it's more accurately called "culture" as opposed to
>propaganda for a minute. Now, another question: can you blame 'them' for
>their views?
>
>Lets get back to propaganda for a second. I say we all, all over the world
>have been subject to particularly virulent forms of propaganda throughout
>our lives. In fact, I was subjected to it a short time ago, during our
>provincial election. And you Americans are going to get a healthy dose (if
>you havent already), in your upcoming federal election. What's the
>difference with the Arabs? Actually, let me answer that for you. The
>difference is, they don't see the world through eyes of Red, White and Blue.
I think that in the above paragraphs you are attempting to equate virulent anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism with both "culture" and "electioneering." I can only hope that you can't be serious.
Yes and no. In a nutshell I'm saying that, yes, what you said does indeed exist, but it's nothing unique. And in a scaled down comparison, sure, I am equating virulent
anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism with both "culture" and
"electioneering."
To equate virulent anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism as having the legitimacy of being just another "culture" is simply indefensible.
I have said nothing so black & white. If anything, I simply never said enough, and failed to elaborate.
In any case, culture is certainly a piece of the pie. Yes, culture. Which opens up such doors as religion, government, ideals, etc... which in turn open up many doors of their own.
After all, yes, I *can* blame them for their views, because these views are wrong,
Wrong? I'm not so sure that ANYONE has access to that judgement. Would you like to rephrase? Perhaps something to the effect of, "their views conflict with mine"?
false
I say, that if their views didn't hold some element of apparant truth for them, then they wouldn't hold those views in the first place. Surely you agree.
and at their underlying roots in pure hatred - are despicable. Admittedly, there are extenuating circumstances in that they have been fed this propaganda their entire lives and *moreover* that this has been done in combination with a careful restriction of outside influences and ideas.
Here we agree. The pure hatred, and the roots of, are indeed despicable. At least from where I sit.
To be an Arab does not imply virulent hatred of Jews and Americans - to suggest that it is is gravely insulting to Arabs.
Ah. Misinterpretation my friend. I didn't mean their culture as in their way of life (if their way of life were not impeded by tyrannical governments), but their culture as in how such a culture would allow such governments to come to power, and thus feed such propaganda and restrict the lives of the people in the way you mentioned above.
>Consider for a moment, that the top-story of the Arab press must convey what
>is popular opinion, if it does not convey the objective truth. And we all
>know that it's an absurd notion, that the Americans assassinated two Arab
>journalists! So from whence does this popluar opinion come? Well, it's a
>reflection of a place and a time.
Perhaps I was not clear on this point in my original message.... these rumours that the Americans had killed these journalists *on purpose* were repeated time and again in the Arab press.
I'm sorry, I fail to understand what you're driving at.
>>Given these stark realities, it is worth recalling that despite the United
>>State's strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia, it was Saudi Arabia that
>>produced Osama bin Laden; it was Saudi Arabia that produced most of the
>>9/11 hijackers, and that all of this occurred long before the US invaded
>>Iraq.
>
>Excuse me John, this may sound rude, but it's not my intention. Instead of
>offering up a few mundane facts as something profound, I say but one word -
>COINCIDENCE. Coupled of course with: cultural differences, religious
>fanaticism, etc...
>
>But ultimately, I think the word coincidence, sums everything up nicely.
Travis, I think that the above represents a typical example of the dangers of line-by-line responding without considering the overarching points that the author is trying to present.
<lol> No doubt. It's easy to get bogged down with line-by-line posting.
Ultimately, the War on Terror cannot be won by mere police actions and targeted strikes against the Al Qaeda organization, it can only be won by changing the fundamental conditions on the ground in the Middle East.
JDG
Who says it has to be won? Or rather, what exactly are the victory conditions?
-Travis
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