--- Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Deborah Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > All of the folks I know who want 'more proof' or a > > 'UN-sanctioned international coalition' before war > > is declared think Saddam is a monster...<snip> > > But it's interesting, isn't it, that this doesn't > seem > to excite them at all. I live in New York, I saw > the > protests, and I read plenty of stuff the anti-war > people put out... <snip> I can only say that all those _I_ know (friends, colleagues, family) who would support a UN coalition against Iraq certainly condemn Saddam. Of course, none are members of ANSWER nor have they marched (written letters, yes). > > Why equate "war protester" with "pro-Saddam?!" - > > again, the vast majority of those I know who > > "protest > > the war" do so _because they think an > international > > coalition ought to be made_ to prosecute it (OK, > one > > that involves the UN), not b/c they think SH is > > anything other than a slime-ball. > > But that's a fantasy, and we know it's a fantasy, so > it's equivalent to saying they want Mahatma Gandhi > to get up out of his grave and give the war its > blessing. <snort> Overstatement. A coalition was forged before, so it can be again. Will it be easy? No. But that's not a reason not to try. > First, the argument that the agreement of > dictatorial > China, amoral France, and well, whatever the hell > Russia is right now, gives some sort of moral stamp > to overthrowing someone like Hussein is absurd. No, of course not moral - just practical. > Second, > the national interests of France (as the French > government currently interprets them) mean that we > aren't going to get that - so why, instead of > protesting the US, aren't there hundreds of > thousands > of people burning French flags for supporting > someone like Hussein? Because most people don't know that France helped SH build a nuclear reactor? I hesitate to use the term "war of words," but I don't think that a good _public_ case of how France/Russia is benefited by SH's continuance has been put forth by the Admin. It isn't enough for the Admin to believe that they have a case - they need to convince the American (and preferably world) public. That blunders have been made in this 'game' of perception/appearance has not helped their case (frex, claiming to have evidence of SH' involvement in 9/11, then later the 'informant' is discredited). >It's not like this is an aberration - > they've been doing it for decades. So why isn't > that > getting people excited? Again, it's suggestive. Suggestive of what? Not being informed? Not having the facts? Not trusting what they've been told recently because prior claims have been dismissed? > You can say "this ought to happen" or "that ought to > happen" as much as you want. They are not, in fact, > going to happen. One of the markers of sanity is > seeing the world as it actually is, not as you wish > it were. <grin> *Your* definition, not mine. To desire a better world is the basis for many improvements. Or do you dismiss those who "have a dream?" Gandhi and MLK decided that they didn't want their worlds to continue unchanged - so they worked towards that change. [Note that I *am not* equating their work of improved social justice to war/not-war WRT Iraq -- only your statement that what "ought" is "not, in fact, going to happen." Because sometimes it does.] >So this is the world as it is. Countries are > self-interested. Some of them perceive their > self-interest as protecting Saddam. The US thinks > its self-interest is in overthrowing Saddam. > Overthrowing > Saddam would be A Good Thing. The moral thing. So > American interests (as they often are) are in > consonance with the demands of abstract morality, > and > French interests (among others) are opposed to that > morality. But it's the _US_ people are protesting? > What does that tell you? Several things - chief among them, a poorly-waged "war of words" (see also my prior post about squandering the goodwill of many peoples). Also, that as the bigshot, the US must be 'like Caesar's wife above reproach' - not that that's fair, but that's the way it is. > > I am genuinely puzzled by the "but turn a blind > eye to the vastly larger faults of those who oppose > > her," > > Gautam, because I really don't know *anyone* who > > thinks that way. I am certainly among those _who > > expect America to hold to a higher moral standard_ > > because - well, because we're *supposed* to be > > morally > > superior to the nasty dictators of the world! <snipped rest of my "idealized sheriff" statement> > > But, well, Debbi, I do know lots of people who are > that way. Most of them seem to oppose the war. And > the behavior crops up a lot. Fair enough. > For example, I think you > made a rather snarky comment about how "our hands > aren't clean" with regards to supporting Saddam. <grin> Nah, if I'd wanted to be snarky I would have chosen much more inflammatory language! > Now, > that's true. But there's a huge difference between > the fairly minor aid that we gave him, and the > enormous support that he got from, say, France and > Germany. So why the comment? Bluntly, because I find the "holier than thou" attitude WRT the-US-vs.-the-world foolish, condescending, and most of all **counterproductive to the stated goals** of the government. It's one thing to claim to be better (which we are), another _entirely_ to state that one has both God's ear and His mission --which happens also to be the claim of certain Muslim extremists. If this is presented as a "holy war," it *will not* stay confined to Iraq. > If aide to Saddam > disqualifies you from acting here, then it's not > _us_ > who bear the vast majority of the moral taint, is > it? <snipped rest of paragraph pertaining to above query> Umm, could you please rephrase this? I'm not sure what you're asking me... (although I have already stated that I certainly do not think the US is 'worse than Saddam' -- which is an absurd position, and no one I know would say or even think such foolishness) Debbi __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
